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Wednesday, May 17, 2006

HE WROTE: But Seriously Now

Actually, I am being serious. There’s been quite a bit of press about this whole plagiarism thing reference Kaavya Viswanathan. First, if she wasn’t 19, in Harvard and it wasn’t a 500k two-book deal, I don’t think people would be talking about it so much. But those things are true, so given that this blog is sometimes about writing, here’s my Moot outlook on it.

What I found interesting were two articles. One in PW Daily around May 10th or so and the other in the NY Times on Friday, May 12.

Here’s the one from PW Daily:
<<<“On April 15, Viswanathan wrote 259 words for the Times of India about her favorite books. She mentioned that she was currently reading Zadie Smith's On Beauty — "I like it a lot" — and she expressed her admiration for the works of Evelyn Waugh, P.G. Wodehouse, Henry James, Jane Austen, the Brönte sisters, Kazuo Ishiguro, Margaret Atwood, Dorothy Dunnett, and Ian McEwan — hardly the stuff of mass-market chicklit. At school, she wrote, she keeps up with the belles lettres "by reading all the books that are short-listed for the Booker," a reference to the Mann Booker Prize for Fiction, a prestigious award for novelists from the British Commonwealth and Ireland.
When she spoke to the Associated Press on April 23, she again said that she enjoyed Atwood and Ishiguro. And when asked in an interview with UniversityChic.com to list "some of [her] favorite books," she answered, "I really like Kazuo Ishiguro."
On a less highbrow note, she told the Times of India about her "guilty pleasure": old children's books, especially the works of Enid Blyton, the English author behind the Famous Five and Noddy book series. And she confessed to UniversityChic.com that "I really like reading trashy romance novels. Is that something I can admit?"
But one author Viswanathan never mentioned was Megan McCafferty. And while McCafferty's books aim at a young audience and contain romance, few would describe them as "old children's books" or "romance novels." If McCafferty's books had "spoke[n]" to Viswanathan "in a way few others did," she kept it to herself.”>>>>

OK. Now, first, calm down romance writers. I think she was trying to be ‘cute’. You know sometimes we say things and they come back to haunt us. But I don’t think she’s going to be showing up at RWA National in Atlanta. I also wonder when the heck she had time to do school work reading all that high-brow stuff never mind the trashy stuff. Do they give homework at Harvard? Plus somewhere in there she wrote a novel. Anyway, I barely have time to read the side of the breakfast cereal box while eating the cereal.

I remember we (Jenny and moi) did an interview where we got asked those questions: What’s on your nightstand? Favorite line from a book? etc. It makes you kind of look around and go, well, three open Ding-dong wrappers, the tv remote, an empty water bottle and a lot of dog hair. Well, more specifically the question is “what BOOK do you have on your nightstand?” And the answer I gave was The Origin Of Consciousness in The Breakdown of the Bicameral Mind. Which sounds really cool and sophisticated. Hell, Sean Penn gave that same exact answer in an Esquire interview a year or so ago. And that book is indeed on our nightstand. Of course the question wasn’t whether I was reading it. Deb reads it a lot. I’ve read it. Tried to understand it. Grasped some of it. I tend to read what Deb tells to read me because Deb reads everything and is a lot smarter than me and I trust her. Which leads me to the article from the Times which Deb cut out for me and handed to me as I left for the airport last week and told me to read several times. It’s an op-ed piece by Whitney Otto who wrote How To Make An American Quilt, which is a book I also read, because Deb told me to. Good book.

Anyway, I’m not going to copy the article, cause it’s long and the Times might come after me, but if I read it right, and it’s quite possible I got some of it wrong here are some of Otto’s points:

-Chick-lit/romance novels laid end to end are like tract houses. They might be painted differently but they are essentially the same thing.- My take: The same could be said of any genre, even, gasp, books that have the pretense to call themselves works of literature, but it’s not exactly true either. This is the classic literature/genre argument, which I’ll tackle on another post when I have more energy and actually care.

-Overachievers rarely become writers. Writers tend to be underachievers who listen to gossip, drink too much, and have an entirely different set of skills than that required on a Harvard application.- My experience is that most authors I know are not smiley happy, 19 year olds with a bright future ahead of them at an Ivy League school. Hello Jenny, Bob and all you other authors out there. Living the dream. I always say writers are not in the bell curve and we aint exactly on the good end of the bell curve either.

-If she used a consultant to get her into Harvard, then it makes sense she used a consultant/book packager to get her into the world of publishing.- Agree with that. What the hell is a book packager anyway? How do you package a book? How do you package something that is supposed to be creative and your own work? One of the greatest things about being an author is you get to do it yourself. Why would you give that up? Oh, that’s right. To get published. But publishing is like, a bonus. It’s the writing itself that’s the reward. Or should be. And has it occurred to anyone that maybe the book packager was the one who plagiarized? Doesn’t matter in a way because her name was on the cover as the author. Just seems like a weird system that I don’t get.

-Why should anyone be surprised about a “faux writer writing a faux novel.”- Kind of a cold statement but cuts to the core of the matter. This is something Jenny and I have spoken about quite a bit. There is a very big difference between wanting the writing life and being a writer. I think a lot of people, perhaps Viswanathan among them, want what they envision being a writer is as opposed to what being a writer really is. The true life of a writer is a very lonely one, sitting there in front of your computer, trying to conjure up character and story out of the dark depths of your brain.
Not book tour (shudder). People come up and ask directions for the bathroom.
Not agent and editor meetings in New York (scary). And they sit and talk about shoes and other important stuff. A lot.
Not panels at National (very, very scary). Lots of people wanting the secret yet there is no secret.
Not book contracts (ok, wait, those are good but they’re pieces of paper). Because they’re never as great as other people think they are and how they sound to outsiders.
Not standing around at cocktail parties being able to smugly say “I’m a writer.” Because usually people then ask your name and then say “Never heard of you.”
But it is a really cool job. I’m not contradicting myself. I’m saying the essence of writing is great. I think writers work so damn hard, pretty much all the time, and are desperate to make a living at it, because they want to keep doing it. If that makes sense. There’s nothing else I’d rather do for a living than write. But you know, if that next contract didn’t come and I had to get another job, my life wouldn’t be over.

You write because you have to. Because it’s your essence. Not because you envision yourself being a writer. Because you are a writer if you write.

160 Comments:

At 17/5/06 8:42 AM, expert bookworm said...

virgin blog!

 
At 17/5/06 9:11 AM, Patrice said...

This whole Viswanathan matter has been fascinating to watch. While I can't help but feel sorry for this young woman's very public disgrace, a big part of my reaction has been 'oh for heaven's sake, come on, admit it, you knowingly plagiarized.' Blame stress, blame the pressure to achieve, but own up to your mistake.

Apparently the Alloy Syndicate (not sure I'm remembering the name correctly) shares copyright with Viswanathan. In the past syndicates often provided outlines for the writers they hired, so, like Bob, I can't help but wonder about the level of Alloy's culpability.

I suppose Viswanathan will write a book about the humiliation of the experience. Surely Little Brown deserves something in exchange for $500 K and the expense incurred in publishing and removing the book from stores.

 
At 17/5/06 9:18 AM, bon cheri bomb said...

Bob wrote: I think writers work so damn hard, pretty much all the time, and are desperate to make a living at it, because they want to keep doing it. If that makes sense.

It makes sense to me. I'm not making a living at it, and maybe never will, but for me it's more of a matter of I can't NOT do it. I can't imagine not writing.

And, thank you, I laughed myself silly at your mention of The Origin Of Consciousness in The Breakdown of the Bicameral Mind. I, too, have that book, though not next to my bed. I bought it, read it, even understood it -- more than 20 years ago. Can't remember now what the heck it was about, just that my parents and siblings thought I was really strange for being interested in it. Turns out I was in good company. I'll tell my mom. Belated Mother's Day gift.

bw

 
At 17/5/06 9:19 AM, Charity_S said...

So, does the advance stay with the author? I've wondered about this, but must admit, I haven't followed this poor girls shame enough to know. Will she retain the money they gave her? If so, will they/can they sue her to get it back? Because I imagine, quite a bit of that has already gone to lawyers.

 
At 17/5/06 9:31 AM, Lynn said...

I admit to not reading/hearing about this, but "googled" the name because I'm to lazy to hit the databases. Found a brief entry in the Harvard Crimson.

I agree that if she wasn't at Harvard the story probably wouldn't be covered as extensively. There was a similar incident several years ago with Janet Daily, suspect plagiarism, and a Nora Roberts book. I read both titles and didn't catch the passages in question. I still don't know how that resolved. But no matter who the author may be, it's just wrong.

The whole issue of plagiarism is a serious one on campus. I'm torn between the two adages: students (or anyone for that matter)just not knowing it's wrong and puh-lease, how do you not know it isn't wrong. We are living in a 'cut and paste' world. The concept of the internet and intellectual property - hey if it's on the internet it's free, right? - is something not being addressed to the fullest potential in academics. So we have paper mills and websites to check for plagiarism.

Yes, the student in question did have to have talent to craft the novel. But lifting someones work to call your own is wrong. Everyone can indeed write (heck, I'm blathering on here), but not everyone is a writer.

Sigh, I won't share what's on my nightstand other than to say it is dust covered.

Writer's not being overachievers? Uh-huh, sure. What about the dedication and compulsion you have to work on your craft? Let's count the number of projects the two of you have going at any given time and then revisit the overachiever moniker. I can not begin to imagine what it takes to create a 300+ page book out of thin air.

With the publish or perish mentality, I wonder how in-depth this will be discussed?

 
At 17/5/06 9:40 AM, Brenda Bradshaw said...

On our nightstands - man, that's a topic right there. Although I will say out of the stack currently sitting there, I'm about to give up completely on a novel that's just making me stare and wonder, "How did THIS get published?" I've never left a book unfinished, but this one is up there as a first. Pity that.

Bob's last paragraph says it all. It's not what we do, it's who we ARE.

 
At 17/5/06 10:06 AM, DownUnderGal said...

I had a million things to do today. It is now midnight in Australia. I am very tired. I just finished doing a media release for the RWAust conference in August - spent an hour fiddling with a damn watermark because I'm a complete techo phobe and had to just give up. Worked at the school tuckshop today. Looked for fancy dress constumes for the family for a party we're all going to on Friday night. Did the grocery shopping - with kids (shudder).Answered 100 emails. Made tea. I still have to do a load of washing or the kids wont have uniforms tomorrow.

My point?
I'm very tired but I'm cranky more than anything. I have half a chapter left - HALF A CHAPTER!! to finish the damn book and my life totally got in the way today and stoped me from doing it.
This does not please me.
I'm a writer. I write. Or I am cranky.

ftmpue - Too bloody tired to play with the verification god. Catch you all in the morning.

 
At 17/5/06 10:08 AM, Christina B. said...

First, I can't begin to imagine what it must feel like to realize that someone has taken what you sweated over, literally stole from you. I know a lot of people, probably those not in the industry, act rather blase about plagerism. But it is theft and of the worst kind really because your ideas, your work and effort, are not something you can run out to WalMart and replace.

Second, if I had illusions about what writing for a living really consisted of, reading this blog has cured me of that. And how you two, you and Jenny, can deal with all of it and still be so very gracious to us the fans and to all the aspiring writers out there, is beyond me. You have to really love what you are doing I guess to put up with the rest.

Negative comments on the Romance genre: Either (a) they've read some and it wasn't to their taste, or (b) they haven't read the genre at all. If a, well I don't like everything I've read either, but just because its not to my taste isn't a reason to knock it. If b, well that's just dumb. Those people don't deserve comment.

To the comment that romance novels are like tract houses ... well we who read them know better. You could hand me a manuscript cold and 1/4 way through I'll know that this book is NOT a Crusie, or might well be a Roberts or a Howard, but certainly not a Krentz. Because with each author there is an entirely different flavor to the book. They are different, dammit! And I've read enough bad chick-lit to know that not just anyone can do it. Writing is art and each artist's work is distinguishable even if they all paint the same picture.

The thing about "literature" is that its definition is hazey at best and always changing. As soon as an author really sells and becomes popular they are sneered at for writing for the masses. (a) That's nothing more than sour grapes because their book isn't selling; (b) Shakespeare wrote for the masses too. Pfffllltttt! And so there.

On overachievers not becoming writers: Huh? I don't think you put all that time and effort into a book, into pushing it, facing the potential for rejection, dealing with contracts, agents, publishing houses, and the dreaded book tours because you're lazy. You have to be pretty darned dedicated to what you are doing. And isn't that what makes an overachiever?

On the whole consultant/packager thing, seems to me if you let someone else tweak what you write to make it fit a trend, then its no longer your book, its a corporate product created by committee. And that's just sad. Maybe the packager did the plagerizing, but it was her name on the book. You put your name on something, you take responsibility for it.

(blue) txvydoun: Tirelessly, Xavier vetted Yves dreary omens, unceasingly negative.

dang, that was a good one too.

(red) cggdy: Craftily, George grew dandilion yarn.

 
At 17/5/06 10:10 AM, Scope Dope Cherrybomb said...

Wow! That was very profound, Bob. The last two paragraphs describe my DD perfectly. Unfortunately, to my sorrow, they do not describe me.

I have tried to be a romance writer but I have failed. I just can't stay at it, which I explained many posts ago.

But wait, does that mean I am an overachiever? Well, I'll take that.

zssmkl green

Zavier still says my kid (is) lovely.

 
At 17/5/06 10:19 AM, Christina B. said...

On the subject of what's on my nightstand, it tends to be nonfiction. Because if I get started on a good story I'll never get any sleep! Currently going back and forth between Hawking's/Mlodinow's "A Briefer History of Time" and Ehrman's "Misquoting Jesus" both of which are pretty good. The back and forth thing is mostly a matter of my mood at the time.

(blue) tdmgrv: Tediously, Dan moved grass revealingly verdant.

 
At 17/5/06 10:27 AM, Scope Dope Cherrybomb said...

Now to get serious, Christina b. that was a great comment and I agree completely.

If romance novels were so simple to write I would have written twenty. It is not a formula, although I know that Harlequin used to have one. It does take great dedication and I agree that you have to be an overachiever to stay glued to that keyboard when no thoughts will come.

I watch my DD poring over her manuscripts and synopses, constantly working to make them better. She works hard at her craft. I admire all of you that do that. And how can it be a lonely job when you have all those characters dancing in your heads?

red) enjeldw

Ever nervous, Jenny elicits long Doherty writings.

 
At 17/5/06 10:28 AM, Anonymous said...

Bravo Mr Mayer, Bravo.

One of the things I love about this blog is that it totally reminds me of why I desperately want to be a writer and why I don't write more on paper. I write in my head all day long while I sit here at my cushy office manager job but the thought of putting it on paper terrifies me. Sigh. Maybe my therapist will tell me why. More likely she will make me write about it.

red - ahquo. Geez. Albino horses quietly undermine ostriches.

 
At 17/5/06 10:38 AM, Naked under my clothes said...

Go, Bob.

When I first made a living from writing, I had to force myself to admit it in public. I needed to hear myself say aloud, "I'm a freelance writer." It had been my version of "living the dream" for some time, and I needed to acknowledge it to myself and the world.

I was ready to move on when I overheard a student who worked at a call center say "I'm a freelance writer." I realized everybody meant different things by "I'm a writer." She meant "I have a day job but in my heart I'm a writer." That's fine. But that's not me.

Now I just say "I write for an educational publisher" (my biggest client). Sometimes I add "And you've never heard of me" or "I toil in happy obscurity." It's true. Nobody really cares what you do anyway; they want you to say, "And what do you do?"

You're right, Bob: the work is the thing. And what a thing it is.

norhekk: Ned obviously romances: he eats Krispy Kremes.

 
At 17/5/06 10:41 AM, Cherry Magic Sheryl said...

Bob - when you get serious you do it well.
Downundergal- I totally agree about the cranky. I've ben running my butt off doing a million other things that support my writing habit. I'm lying in bed tweaking my synopsis because I would rather lose sleep than lose writing time.
Beacuse I am a writer and there is nothin I would rather do. Published or not, I am Living the Dream - with every word I write.
And thanks to this blog I have very few illusions left about how a contract will change my life.
So if Bob and Jenny are silent, I don't worry. They're writing, and grocery shopping, fixing toilets, and being classic underacheivers. Who is he kidding?? If I underacheieved htat much, I'd be hospitalized with exhaustion.

 
At 17/5/06 11:00 AM, Anonymous said...

What's on my nightstand? nothing but an alarm clock. However, I do have a book in my purse, a couple on my coffee table, one in my car, one in the bathroom and whatever I am currently reading by my side. Most of them are 'trashy romance novels' because that is what I like. Come on. I like them, it is almost all I read, but when it comes down to it most of them are junk food for the brain. Just like really really good chocolate is still junk food. Just remember, even junk food has some redeeming qualities.
I am reading two 'vitamin packed" books at the moment: Stiff, the curious lives of human cadavers by Mary Roach. (for my book club) and The Fabric of the Cosmos: Space, time and the texture of reality by Brian Greene. Both are very good. But in the time I have been reading them I have finished about 5 romances.

RESting CB, a junk food (for the brain) junkie

kdnkf-Kindly do not kill (a) friend. (just because I expressed an honest opinion)

 
At 17/5/06 11:41 AM, Christina B. said...

Scope Dope Cherrybomb said...

If romance novels were so simple to write I would have written twenty. It is not a formula,

Well I suppose its a formula in that certain elements have to be there. But as Bob said, that's true of all novels to greater or lesser extent. Otherwise all you have is stream of consciousness writing and not a story.

 
At 17/5/06 11:52 AM, Christina said...

Christina B.--You said it all. I have nothing left to comment on those topics except for the bit about what's on my nightstand. Since I am still in term, I am only reading books on Roman art, architecture and the like. However, on my nightstand (actually a shelf above my head that I will no doubt knock myself out cold with one of these days) are some books that I will be reading this summer when I go on my dig. They are:
-Don't Know Much About History by Kenneth C. Davis
-Nickel and Dimed by Barbara Ehrenreich
-Wyrd Sisters by Terry Pratchett
-Sex, Lies and Online Dating by Rachel Gibson
-Atlantis by David Gibbins
-Perfume by Patrick Suskind
-The Other Boleyn Girl by Philippa Gregory

Then, when I get back to the states, I am ransacking my mother's mystery library and reading some Agatha Christie and Elizabeth Peters. And I am also hitting the bookstore and getting some of Lani Diane Rich and Bob's stuff--haven't read any yet, but really looking forward to it.

All right, that's enough jabbering from me.

ngtqj - Never go to Quincy jittered.

 
At 17/5/06 11:52 AM, dee said...

Ok, everyone. Did you read that? Bob said *I* am a writer. Well, not ME, specifically. But he did say 'you are a writer if you write'. And I write. So I'm a writer. Of course, I don't tell people that. Only my very closest friends (and immediate family) know that I'm writing. Well, them and the strangers that my husband tells all the time.

As for this young lady, I think it's all very sad. And it really speaks to people's attitudes in this world. I mean, yes, she took parts of that book and called it her own. And that is just WRONG. Very bad. Yet, there are hundreds of sites all over the internet where students can buy term papers. Nobody smacks them down. Someone mentioned the cut-and-paste thing, and I agree that it's a major part of what happened. I can remember being terrified writing a term paper, lest I should inadvertantly copy a phrase from the encyclopedia. Today, it's nothing to copy paragraphs and call them your own.

As for what's on my nightstand, well that's easy. DLD. And a whole huge stack of Lynn Kurland books. I can't get enough of her stuff. Her books are my guilty pleasure.

 
At 17/5/06 12:04 PM, Louis said...

Bob...very inciteful and quite a view into the writers mind.
I read but don't write, so I get the benefit of the writers mind....and quite a benefit!...keeps me up late into the night quite a lot.

Nora Roberts won her case.

vwddzv red

vicarious words don't do zip vicariously

 
At 17/5/06 12:34 PM, naked under my clothes said...

You know, I spent my entire time at the gym feeling as if I'd been snide about the student with the day job when I didn't mean to be.

What I meant to say was that for me, finally, it's not about saying "I'm a writer." It's about WRITING: butt in chair, fingers on keyboard, pen on paper, plotting into a tape recorder while running errands, opening a vein, working through the nausea, whatever.

And getting back to Bob's point, I think lots of people want to "be writers" but don't want to actually, you know, WRITE. They find doing the work to be too hard. Stephen Glass and Jayson Blair are recent examples from the supposedly credible world of journalism.

But anyway, that's what I meant. No snideness intended.

And I can't wait to read Bob's thoughts about "literature" vs. "trash." Sonnets have formulas, but nobody sneers at Shakespeare.

ldjahd: Let's drink juice and hunker down.

 
At 17/5/06 12:37 PM, marcia in ok said...

you are a writer if you write.

Seriously Bob, Thank you for the validation. (I am a non-fiction writer and I tend to discount my work to myself. I've always struggled internally with the issue of credibility.)

The "book" scandal that was more on my radar was the "Oprah" book guy and his problem with what did and didn't really happen to him.

On my nightstand? Always present (in form of decorative display): Gone with the Wind, Flashpoint by JAK, High Five by Evanovich, WTT by Jenny, and One Summer by Karen Robards.

Reading or TBR: Evanovich's Plum books 1-4. I'm re-reading in anticipation of book 12 due in a few weeks. No high-brow stuff for me - I'm fiction all the way in my free time. I get all the non-fiction I can handle in my own writing/researching.

I agree that there is a big difference between the 'business of writing' and writing itself. I disagree that writers are underacheivers. Solitary yes, falling short of self-set goals - usually, but underachievers - NO.

hekfjm - word games don't fit with the SERIOUSness of this blog for me today.

 
At 17/5/06 12:44 PM, Scope Dope Cherrybomb said...

Nobody has said but did this girl ever get taken to court and plagerism proven or did she admit to it? I am confused.

The only time I have felt that I had to write in the same sense that my DD has to write is when I was writing for the newspapers. First, the weeklys were I was the only 'live' writer and then for the daily where I was "the Wawa Bureau".

In the weeklies I was writing to amuse the reader so it was pretty inane stuff but for the daily I was extremely concerned with being strictly factual...you know, accurate and getting the whole story. I hope I accomplished both. I found I wrote really well to a deadline but not if I have all kinds of time to get it done.

green) aesbtu

Actually, essential stories Bob takes universally. OOH that is bad.

 
At 17/5/06 12:53 PM, dee said...

The Oprah book guy? I never heard of it until my friend brought the book into my house and my husband said "You know, that book is all crap, right?" I just stared at him like "Huh?" Then he explained that the writer had pissed off Oprah because he said it was all reall, and it turned out that it wasn't. I had no clue. Had never even heard of the book. Of course, I think I was hard into writing craft books at the time, and hardly came up for air to eat, much less watch Oprah. It's still sad though. I mean, I started reading that book and thought it would have been an excellent fiction sell. I don't know why he tried to play it all off as if it had happened to him.

 
At 17/5/06 1:15 PM, Scope Dope Cherrybomb said...

Two things. Nakedunder myclothes said the "credible" world of journalism. Not a good idea to generalize. Most journalism is credible, numc. Journalism like everything else has its bad guys. There are some who try harder.

$500k for a first time author? How did I miss that the first three readings through. Gawd, I am going to pull out my two attempts and try again. Isn't that a little bit ludicrous? What did her book have that many other first time authors did not, besides being alledgedly plagerized? Please explain this amount to me. I bet even Bob and Jenny, him and her are amazed.

red) goars

Good oral answers reveal strengths.

 
At 17/5/06 1:26 PM, Anonymous said...

Bob said, "Because you are a writer if you write."

Thanks, Bob. Some of us need to be reminded of that now and again.

Especially me when I'm taking my lunch in the basement of where I work and looking for post-it note #14 out of 38 so I can add it to my work-in progress on the ancient lap-top before I forget because I'm sure my boss isn't paying me to write romantic suspense when I'm supposed to be copying files.
But let's face it. The best ideas come when you really should be doing something else - at least for me.

And when I'm done with this one, I can start all over again with one of the other 1,570,000 idea files, post-it notes, or scribbles on napkins. LTD!

Lurking in Indiana

qsfozzb - Darn. The copier's beeping for me.

 
At 17/5/06 2:03 PM, glamour-geek said...

Christina sez the following is on her nightstand:
-Don't Know Much About History by Kenneth C. Davis

I like this one. I used to use it to teach cultural pluralism in the U.S. when I was in Ohio (Bowling Green State, like Jenny, though not at the same time). If you thought stand up comedy was hard, try teaching the history of American multiculturalism to clueless suburban white kids who resented being made to take the class (filled a requirement). As one of them said to me, "Why do I need to take multiculturalism? I'm an INTERNATIONAL BUSINESS major!" Oy.

On my nightstand: The Bombshell Manual of Style, Brockmann's Hot Target, a book on the origins of WW I, a book on Etruscan culture, "From the Beast to the Blonde," an autobiography of an artist/gallery owner friend of the family (now deceased). On the floor next to the bed: a number of fashion magazines, a compliation of science fiction short stories, and "The Art of War."

For those keeping score: today we had part of our fit test at bootcamp again. 3 weeks later, my mile run is down from 11m14s to 9m40s. I was hoping for 9m30, but between PMS cramps and a sore left knee, I was 10 seconds over that. Close enough, though. I'm pretty pleased.

zfyyd: Zaphod followed yelling yellow dinosaurs.

 
At 17/5/06 2:19 PM, Jessica said...

Was thinking about the tract-house romance genre comment.

Ice cream is ice cream, and mint-chip may look vaguely like pistachio, but if you try to slip me pistachio instead, the spoon lodged in your heart will probably indicate to you the subtle distinction I find between the two.

:)

Jessica

dsdupf: Drab slithering dinosaurs usurp pretty fairies.

 
At 17/5/06 2:26 PM, djr said...

Scope Dope Cherrybomb said...
Nobody has said but did this girl ever get taken to court and plagerism proven or did she admit to it? I am confused

It's been pretty well proven by comparison with at least 1 and possibly as many as 4 books. She says any similarities were "unconscious and unintentional".
For a review of the similarities see this article:
http://www.thecrimson.com/article.aspx?ref=512965

 
At 17/5/06 2:27 PM, Deb said...

Plagiarism is wrong, regardless of age, physical attributes, where one goes to school, what you read or what's on your nightstand. We learn this in grade school for cat's sake. With the advent of the technology age, I think we've lost our moral compass.

Most of the literary authors cited as the young lady's favorites, were required reading in English Lit back in the stone-age when I went to high school. I have also read Dave Barry, and loved it/his writing. But then, I didn't go to Harvard, don't have that image to maintain. It sounds like the young lady has some issues regarding expectations made of her. In that light, the pressure she has makes her more susceptible to problems such as plagiarism in writing. Win/succeed at all costs.

I haven't a clue as to what is on my nightstand. I have books spread out all over, what a mess. But, I am almost finished with Bodyguard of Lies, can't remember the author's name. GREAT Book!! I think Gant is one of the most fascinating characters I've read, well, in addition to Dave Barry.

So, Bob, where's the bathroom?

onnlhir= oh no! leaving his irreplaceable rotor.

 
At 17/5/06 2:43 PM, Robena Grant said...

Lynn, said:
I agree that if she wasn't at Harvard the story probably wouldn't be covered as extensively

Exactly. The whole marketing blitz was on "student at Harvard" it seemed titillating like there'd be some inside scoop on the kids of the rich and famous.

I think what Bob might have meant when he referred to most writer's being "underachievers" was the abscence of Ivy League education. To be a good writer you have to be engaged in life, living life to the fullest otherwise you have nothing real "on an emotional level" to impart. You don't need a first class education for that. Story telling and creativity come from a different part of the brain than "book smarts." However, that said, you do have to have a pretty decent grip on grammar, spelling, story construction, etc. etc. (This coming from the Queen of too many commas (grin))
Some of the best books I've read have been about the less than perfect character living on the other side of the tracks. A writer can't really write that from the gut and heart level if he or she hasn't experienced it.
On my nightstand:
A Widow for One Year - John Irving (Still trying to get through it.)
The Spontaneous Fulfillment of Desire and The Seven Spiritual Laws of Success, both by Deepak Chopra.
Speaking of John Irving, (Exeter '61)his novel, A Prayer For Owen Meany, was turned into a play by a British playwright, Simon Bent, and Irving attended the students performance at Exeter (my daughters old school)this spring. I believe it was the second performance of the play in America.
Irving has made his fortune telling stories about his less than rosy experiences at the exclusive boarding school. Even when he doesn't call the town Exeter in his novels, you know it is.
Maybe our young Harvard student had aspired to a similar success.
ckjndx
could kindly jackaroos not dance 'xactly
nope
ptiob
pretty tame igaunas often bite

 
At 17/5/06 2:53 PM, Anonymous said...

To Jessica.
WELL SAID.

My nightstand? Super organized. No c/r books on there because I just finished EVEN VAMPIRES GET THE BLUES by Katie Mcallister (Loved it!) and put it in my alphabetized book shelf. That's right. I'm one of those. But I am taking suggestions. No, not that kind, Geez.

lbooth

 
At 17/5/06 3:18 PM, Margarita CB said...

lbooth said ... I just finished EVEN VAMPIRES GET THE BLUES by Katie Mcallister

I loved her MEN IN KILTS.

(blue) igmwor: Ignoring gnomes makes working out rewarding.

bother

(blue) asykr: Assembly sometimes yields knowing rewards.

 
At 17/5/06 4:35 PM, Anonymous said...

Anonymous of lend/loan, 'gator, and squirrel: I feel so very sorry for this young woman. Something seems VERY FISHY that any first-time writer would get a half mil for anything, no matter how brilliant. I think she's been hung out to dry. No 19-year old should be un-shepherded in this life. Those adults in the publishing area of this fiasco, seems to me, got caught in a mess and dumped her to the piranhas. She's stuck for life with this mistake. What a terrible, terrible shame. I hope her parents are springing for some serious therapy. This is too much of a burden for a 19-year old to bear alone. We've all made mistakes, but to by crucified internationally, how crushingly terrible.
VOGOIYBE: Voting on gerbils of initially young behavior evolves.

 
At 17/5/06 4:38 PM, Lynn said...

Deb said: "With the advent of the technology age, I think we've lost our moral compass."

Interesting observation. I admit to stopping back here again this afternoon just to see where the conversation was going. Spending time on a daily basis explaining to kids why you can't just copy and paste a picture from the Louvre web site onto your personal web site (my teacher said I could)I have to look at the distinction of saying sure you can copy and paste but you shouldn't.

Along these same lines, I've been following (somewhat) a story concerning a tenured professor on Inside Higher Ed having issues with plaigarism and verifiable research.

Do the six books sitting on my desk count? Or only those books on the nightstand? I can share the books on my desk ....

 
At 17/5/06 4:58 PM, Nora said...

What's on my nightstand? Nothing. I don't have a nightstand. :( In our small bedroom, my husband lucked out. BUT, on top of my dresser, I am the proud BRAND NEW OWNER of the following:

Cut Out by our beloved Bobster

and then...

Sizzle
The Cinderella Deal
Trust Me on This

WAAHOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!

All of the Crusie's are signed by The Great Cherry herself.

I'm happy today!

rdlcgxxb

red dragons long courageously ... oh pooo...I give up! ;)

 
At 17/5/06 5:06 PM, bon cheri bomb said...

-Chick-lit/romance novels laid end to end are like tract houses. They might be painted differently but they are essentially the same thing.

I know why this seems offensive to some (and let me preface this by saying that I love romances and both read them and write them) but in essence it is true. Romances are more "like" other romances than, say, science fiction novels (which it could be said are also all alike). It is the sameness that makes them romance novels. And it's the paint that makes them each different.

But here is a theory I read somewhere a long time ago, and who said/wrote it I have no idea, but it was probably someone really famous and smart whose name I should remember:

There are only two stories:
A man leaves home.
A man comes to town.


(of course the PC version would be to say "a person" so obviously this famous/smart person whose name I can't remember was a man. If someone knows who it was, please tell me.)

Now this is the kind of statement that makes my head hurt, because I immediately start thinking about every story I've ever read, trying to disprove it. Last time I tried, which was years ago, I couldn't come up with any that didn't fit. So either this person was correct, or I haven't read enough stories.

Aren't you glad I shared that so you can spend the rest of the day thinking about it? [insert evil laughter]

bw

vtdkgqt: various tales do keep (us) guessing, quietly told

 
At 17/5/06 5:10 PM, Christina B. said...

Re the "fishy" aspect. I've been wondering if she wasn't in some part used. I'm not saying she has no responsibility, but I do wonder ... its as if they took various elements from various recently successful novels and threw them all together. The whole thing FEELS packaged. Right down to the title because I immediately thought - "haven't I read that?" which I haven't but its got that flavor to it, like "How Stella Got Her Groove Back" if that makes sense.

I guess what I'm saying is that someone, I think, manufactured the book to spec, and I wonder if they didn't choose her as the author to meet some general profile.

 
At 17/5/06 5:29 PM, Christina B. said...

bon cheri bomb said...
-Chick-lit/romance novels laid end to end are like tract houses. They might be painted differently but they are essentially the same thing.

I know why this seems offensive to some (and let me preface this by saying that I love romances and both read them and write them) but in essence it is true. Romances are more "like" other romances than, say, science fiction novels (which it could be said are also all alike).

I don't find it offensive. I just think well, duh, of course their are similarities. And of course there's a certain amount of formula. But that's true of all novels. All art. All architecture. Whatever. And so what. There have to be certain rules or it won't make any sense. That doesn't mean they lack creativity or that one doesn't stand out from another.

Well except for Barbara Cartland. Those are completely interchangeable.

 
At 17/5/06 5:50 PM, DownUnderGal said...

Okay back again - less tired.

A few years ago in Australia there was a writer (think she won the Booker or some equally prestigous award) with a book called the Hand That Signed the Paper. She was attacked a little while later not for plagerism but for passing herself off as the daughter of an illiterate ukranian taxi driver, hence an authority on the material within the book, which was extremely false. I kind of felt sorry for her - she was just really getting into her character and who cares if the book was brilliant and it received high praise indeed.

As to whoever said Harlequin had a formula - wrong. Romantic fiction,particularly category, is accused of being formulaic because it has certain elements, like a guy and a girl falling in love but it is no more than any other mass market fiction is formulaic. There is no big computer or secret formula they give to their authors - just blood sweat and tears.

Bon cheri bomb - someone once said all you need for a good read is a girl and a gun. Actually that may have been for a good movie. But obviously there is differng opinions as to essential elements ;-)

 
At 17/5/06 5:51 PM, Toni Anderson said...

I don't agree about writers not being overachievers. Sheesh, Bob, you were a GB for God's sake!

I missed all the plagarism scandals--really I don't live in a cave, I just have little kids. But how dumb can you be? Really?

I wrote a scientific paper with a student and he wrote the first draft and I got the ms to work on and looked up the references he'd quoted only to see he'd lifted huge chunks out of other peoples work. Yikes! If I hadn't got down to the nitty gritty my name would have been on a piece of work that was 50% copied. Needless to say, I might only by 5'1" but he was on his knees by the end of our next meeting.

LOL at Barabara Cartland. That poor old love was an icon to romance. Thank goodness we now have new icons :D

 
At 17/5/06 6:12 PM, Cherry Magic Sheryl said...

Scope Dope asked me to let you all know her computer died today. She won't be online for some time. I'm going to drag my laptop over there so that she can get the occasional fix until the hard drive is repaired. We'll have to share time on it because I use it regularly : ) but sometimes it's good to make sacrifices. Besides, it's still within range of Mother's Day so what else can I do?

red - eukdq
everyone understands, kick drvie quickly

 
At 17/5/06 6:14 PM, Cherry Magic Sheryl said...

Yeah, apparently, I can't spell today. The words look right then I post and shake my head. I'm not in edit mode at the moment. Obviously.

blue- rkuaa

rage kills understanding, all alone

 
At 17/5/06 6:15 PM, Toni Anderson said...

Poor Scope Dope!!! How it gets sorted out soon!

OK--that is the third person I know this month with major computer probs. Yikes.

 
At 17/5/06 6:24 PM, ZaZa said...

This is a long one, kiddies.

Bob asked...
What the hell is a book packager anyway?

I freelanced for a book packager for a while. What they do, one of the things, is come up with a book (or series) idea, describe it to their "writer," who then comes up with a synopsis, TOC (non-fic), and a sample chapter or two. Then, their "artist" takes it and comes up with cover art, illos (if needed), and the packager puts it together into a display and press kit kinda thingee. You see book packagers at the big book marts, flogging their ideas to the publisher/printers/sponsors, basically looking for someone to pay to have it turned into a book. If the idea doesn't sell, the creative talent types still get their fee, but the packager bites the bullet on the costs.
A lot of coffee table books are from packagers, and, currently, a whole bunch of the YA books/series have been generated by book packagers (wasn't the Traveling Pants series packaged?). The finished books can be just as good as any book produced through normal means, but the author is not a name. Some packagers will give the author credit and a share in the royalties, some it's straight work-for-hire, which sucks, especially when the book makes a bundle. But there you go.

AND:
And has it occurred to anyone that maybe the book packager was the one who plagiarized?

Nope. If they pay an author to write a book, the author writes the book. The thing here is that they went for the hook - the uber bright, attractive, non-white chick at an ivy league school - to get the book published. It's kind of an echo of the second book by the Nanny Diaries gals. They were hyped to death because they were at the crest of a wave, but their writing was only so-so, and the competition was much thicker on the ground by that time, from people who weren't getting six and seven figure advances.


AND quotes: "Why should anyone be surprised about a “faux writer writing a faux novel.”

They're not always faux anything. At the time I worked for the packager, I was working on a cookbook and teaching cooking in a professional program. It was cookbooks I worked on for them. If they'd had one of their in-house writer/editors do it, the books wouldn't have necessarily been bad, but they wouldn't have been as good as if they paid someone who knew how to do that particular kind of writing. This girl obviously intended to make a career of writing and was offered big bucks to write something in a style and genre she was unfamiliar with. And with, I'm guessing, the arrogance of youth and an ivy league address, she assumed she could wing it by simply reading a few examples. Who knows what else was going through her mind? Fact is, she wasn't qualilfied for the job, but the marketing types jumped on her like lions on fresh meat.
It's only partly her fault. Greedy people wanted the money they were betting she could generate for them, but they didn't want to perform any due diligence (if I may steal from another profession entirely) to be sure they had a "legitimate" product. When you look at most scandals, in publishing or elsewhere, greed is usally at the bottom of it. Getting greedy also means getting stupid. Ask Jenny. No, not like that. She did all that research in cons, which are basically taking advantage of the cloud of stupidity that comes between a person and their common sense when they get greedy.

ahnsw (red)
aardvarks habitate new south wales
(sorry, downundergal, best I could do)

 
At 17/5/06 6:33 PM, Anonymous said...

Bon Cheri bomb - you are evil.
Of course I am now thinking of all the books I've read recently. And they all fit!

dapedb- Do all plagiarized epics depress Bob?

RESting CB

 
At 17/5/06 6:58 PM, ZaZa said...

overachievers
I went to an overachiever high school and barely made it through. However, I graduated at sixteen and got the third highest SATs in my class. So, I'm, in that context, an underachiever. I could never really focus on school work. Most of it didn't interest me as much as the stuff I was reading for pleasure and the life I was living, either in the real world or in my head. So, I make a perfect writer. Probably why I've always done it. /;+)))

On my nightstand - mostly knitting mags and a few beading ones, too. My latest "day job" is creating patterns for a needlework shop, so that's why they're there. My
"real" reading is on my desk, handy for when I need a break from the computer.

vdefp (red, and did anyone ever figure out why the colors change?)
very deadly elves fight perilously
(I am so not making it today)

 
At 17/5/06 7:20 PM, Anonymous said...

On Bob's point about writers not being in the bell curve, I had a college professor who was flumexed about not knowing how to feed her handouts into the copier for the staple to come out right. I told her not to worry because the whole class was filled with creative writers and none of us knew how to do that either. She lauged and laughed...because she's married to a writer.

 
At 17/5/06 7:34 PM, bon cheri bomb said...

RESting cb wrote: Bon Cheri bomb - you are evil.
Of course I am now thinking of all the books I've read recently. And they all fit!


C'mon, guys. I'm really counting on at least one of you (who shall remain unnamed, though we all know the likely culprits) to come up with (a) who said this and (b) at least one example that does not fit.

Please?

bw

fvtnbr: favorite verbiage tends not 2 be redeemable

 
At 17/5/06 7:36 PM, orangehands said...

bob: you did good, but i must echo, you are not an underachiever. nobody can put in that much work and be an underachiever. it's too completely opposite. (on the other hand, no one said you were an overachiever...joke)

writing: i- like some of you- am a writer. i have to write. when i'm not writing, i'm planning. i could never sell a book, and i'd still write. writing is about writing. people who want to BE writers are way different- they want the glamourized lifestyle (which after reading your blog, even if it is LTD, suggests that the "glamourized" lifestyle doesn't really exist). but they want the "glory" of being a writer rather than because they have to write like others need to breath.

(the following has a good possibility of ending up as a rant):
the writer: in the LA Times, there was an article about a whole bunch of teenage-ish (around the age of "youth") writers who are selling books (i think most of them due to family connections). she was on the list. then the scandal came, which started because Megan McCafferty's fans saw the similarities and warned her on her website. the girl then admitted that she liked Megan's books and maybe got ideas from them, but she didn't mean anything by it.

i don't have any sympathy for her. she plagarized and she was caught. she's a nineteen year old at Harvard- i am sure she has the mental capacity to udnerstand what she did was wrong. and now, she won't even admit it. it wasn't a "little mistake" as she keeps telling people. these are people's books and their incomes (her publishing house really got the short end of the deal there). you can't steal and cost people a lot of money and then go, "oh well."

and yes, being a Harvard student probably played into it, but that's how our media works. we don't care when someone random person drives with a baby on their lap (besides calling them an idiot), but Brittney Spears does it and it takes over the 5 o'clock news, as opposed to more info on foreign problems or the war or the immigration bill or...i remember once timing the news and most of it was the "junk" (celebrity lives, how to make a chicken taste good, etc) instead of news (the war, Congress, Iran's nuclear program, etc). the best news i ever got was when cable accidently gave us a Canadian news channel for a couple of months. American news is horrible and looking for the attention-grabbers, ie celebrities, and not the "boring stuff".

ok, for those of you who have stuck with this, i am getting off the soapbox now. for what's on my nightstand: well, i have about 20 library books, three borrowed from a friend, and a couple of TIMES and Us Newsweek magazines. next to my bed, i have about 10 other library books, five re-reads, a graphic novel, and Bob's Z:a Dave Riley novel.

nora, when you said "Sizzle, The Cinderella Deal, & Trust Me on This" were on your nightstand, all signed, were you bragging? i got Sizzle from Kaiser (they have a little book sale every once in awhile; that was actually how i got my first Crusie, Faking It), but i'm trying to get a cheapish (sorry Jenny, but i'm a student) copy of CD & TMOT. you are one lucky woman.

g-g: i'm very impressed with the 11m14s. then you add 9m40s. i am in awe. (obviously, i am not a runner. a walker, yes, i can walk miles, very quickly, no problem, but running?) actually, i've walked a mile under 10m, but run and it takes me an extra 6m or so. very weird.

jessica: excellent comment

scope dope: i hope your computer is fixed quickly. your a good daughter, cherry magic sheryl

bon cheri bomb: this will keep me busy trying to find a book. will let you know as soon as i do.

green: uiculgg:
under isolated cookery, u lick good grub.

sorry for this being so long

 
At 17/5/06 7:49 PM, orangehands said...

for those who don't remember, bon cheri bomb said...

"There are only two stories:
A man leaves home.
A man comes to town."

...and the rest of us have been trying to find books. well, YA books come to a rescue. a lot of them are just a portion of their lives, in town, never leaving but just living. (ex: Alt Ed by Catherine Atkins). however, still thinking of "adult" books, which is a lot harder. geez, you guys need to stay still more.

 
At 17/5/06 8:06 PM, talpianna said...

Random responses that came to mind as I read this blog:

Bob, for evidence and ammunition about what's really going on in romance novels, I recommend DANGEROUS MEN AND ADVENTUROUS WOMEN, an anthology of essays by romance writers edited by Jayne Ann Krentz; and THE NATURAL HISTORY OF THE ROMANCE NOVEL, by academic Pamela Regis. If you really want to knock yourself out, read Northrop Frye on the subject of the romance genre.

What I find really offensive is that she says "trashy romance novels" as if it were a redundancy. For the record, the Mole doesn't like to read trashy romance novels; the Mole likes to read GOOD romance novels, as by Jane Austen, Jennifer Crusie, Mary Stewart, Elizabeth Lowell, triple goddess Jayne Ann Krentz/Jayne Castle/Amanda Quick, Nora Roberts/J.D. Robb, etc. etc.

For those who like me have never heard of this person before: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaavya_Viswanathan

One of my favorite quotes: "Talkers never write. They just go on talking." -- Christopher Morley

Margaret Drabble's final lecture has some interesting comments on the writer as celebrity:

One of the problems connected with the growth of the literary circuit and the expansion of the book tour is that writers have become disorientated, like the protagonists of recent novels by Amis and Ishiguro. We no longer know where we are or what is expected of us. Are we intellectuals, jesters, stand-up comics, artists, artistes? Are we meant to be giving an update on the reputation of Derrida, or to be making people laugh? (Only the most brilliant, like the late Malcolm Bradbury, could do both at once.) Such random invitations come our way- we may find ourselves sandwiched between a sports star and a duchess at a literary lunch, or stranded alone behind a podium in a three-quarters empty auditorium , or speaking to a select audience of three ladies and a dog in a friendly bookshop. We are offered fees ranging from 'zero and bring your own refreshments', through fifty pounds and five hundred pounds to five thousand pounds and more- no wonder most of us hate letters of invitation saying 'State your Fee'. We are not Mrs Thatcher nor Bill Clinton, nor Nick Leason, nor were meant to be. We do not know what we owe our publishers, and are frightened to say no. For some, the circus element has replaced the central activity- in a fleeting visit to one of the best funded creative writing schools in the world I met young people who seriously discussed how they would stand up to the stress of a book tour before they had even written a book, let alone had one accepted for publication. In Canada this spring- yes, at a festival- I met a successful young writer who had been completely confused by the demands of her publicist. Her first novel involved an undertaker, and she had been asked to pose as a corpse in a coffin. Should she have said no? Was it demeaning to agree to go for the photo opportunity? As I tried to assure her in my elder statesman way that she had the right to say no, I recalled that a press photographer once long ago asked me to jump off the top of a heaped pile of copies of the Oxford Companion to English Literature. And I did it. Moreover, it was rather a good photo- I was laughing wildly as I jumped, and the expression on my face summed up the happy relief of having finished- at least temporarily- with that demanding volume. (More at http://www.redmood.com/drabble/lecture.html)

What's on my nightstand? THE SOCIOPATH NEXT DOOR by Martha Stout. LOCKED ROOMS by Laurie R. King. THE SECULAR SCRIPTURE: A STUDY OF THE STRUCTURE OF ROMANCE by Northrop Frye. GYPSY LOVER by Edith Layton. The clock/radio/cassette player. And Aliera, the Other Cat. (She likes to sit on top of the radio.)

Backstory on Nora Roberts/Janet Dailey: Dailey was caught plagiarizing Roberts. Roberts offered not to sue if Dailey would publicly acknowledge the plagiarism and donate her proceeds from the books to the Literacy volunteers. Dailey agreed but didn't follow through. http://www.likesbooks.com/30.html (other links on that page). Nora sued and won.

Oh, by the way, Bob--remember Bubbles, the fluffy kitten that J.T. rescued in the swamp? http://www.catoftheday.com/ (May 17, for anyone who looks later)

jqnudxqt -- Jenny quipped, "No use, Doherty; Xavier quoted Talpianna."

 
At 17/5/06 8:17 PM, Christina B (Margarita Cherrybomb) said...

Zaza, thanks for the insight into "packaging." Its amusing to see that what I thought wasn't so far from what it really is. Makes me thing of The Monkies and The Village People, actually.

Also, I really had thought I'd done this long and terribly clever, insightful and thought provoking comment on that Oprah author and the role the media played and the current fedupedness of the general public on being lied to - again. But apparently I wrote it in my head. You'll just have to trust me that it was really good stuff.

And it all really goes to show that getting into Harvard is no guarantee that people won't still do stupid things.

As for a man coming to town or a man leaving town ... geeze with all these writers on the blog maybe one of you could write a book that doesn't fit? Then we could all sit back and feel superior because we know of the one exception.

yeah, bless old BC's heart. And the rest of them that wrote those insipid stories. Because bad as they were, they did pave the way. At least, thank the Lord, we've put the bodice rippers behind us.

And you know I think that's a lot of the stigma that still follows the romance genre around. Now we've got novels with comedy, mystery, suspense - all the good stuff. But there will always be some people that refuse to acknowledge that the genre has moved forward. Oh well, let 'em grumble. Romance is a HUGE share of the industry, so it must be all sour grapes. NA NA NA NANA.

(red) dkzvr: Doves kill zaza's violet rose.

 
At 17/5/06 8:37 PM, talpianna said...

Here's what I always thought book packaging was.
http://www.hodi.com/book_packaging.html

The only one I have any connection with is Tekno Books:

Tekno Books is one of the leading and most successful book developers in the world. The Division has had over 1,200 books published in its history, working with such notable authors as Tom Clancy, Dean Koontz, Tony Hillerman, Deepak Chopra, Sara Paretsky and Anne Perry. These books have been sold to 330 publishers around the world in 33 languages, and selected by 25 different book clubs. Tekno Books creates book concepts, sells these concepts to publishers, and arranges for the writing of the manuscripts and their delivery to the publisher. Hollywood Media Corp. owns 51% of Tekno Books.

It's run by editor Martin H. Greenburg, who was co-editor of the two anthologies in which I've been published. In both cases, he was in charge of the financial side and dealing with the publisher, as well as helping the first-named editors (Andre Norton and Bruce Arthurs) to choose stories.

cohknizi -- Come on, homeys, kangaroos need idle zookeeper' irony.

 
At 17/5/06 11:29 PM, bon cheri bomb said...

So, I put the question to my daughter (she whose head explodes regularly from trying to absorb too much information) and she came up with:

A Boy's Life (her favorite novel at the moment) which I have never read but she had told me about the guy drowning in the car and -- he came from out of town.

Then she suggested Romeo and Juliet and I had to tell her that by definition they were both -- leaving home. (she says symbolism doesn't count, but I beg to differ)

Then she came up with Winnie the Pooh and I said those animals all came from Christopher Robin's bedroom and she said, no they all had houses in the woods. Well, yeah, I replied, but they all started out in CR's bedroom and -- they left home.

Then she said it would have to be a story about someone on an island -- who left home to get there.

Then I thought I had come up with one: To Kill A Mockingbird. A truly insular story. But no, damn it, seven-year-old Dill did indeed come from elsewhere, no matter how well he seemed to fit in.

Can someone at least tell me who came up with this dad-blasted theory? Before someone accuses me of plagarism by reference?

bw

ktbeezp: no. it's late.

 
At 17/5/06 11:32 PM, orangehands said...

tal- the cat in the article you posted ("Bubbles") looks drugged. it said "Also he likes his playthings" (no, not that one, geez, CB's) and i wonder how much catnip finds it's way into them.

romance novels: i don't remember where i read it- could have been here- but isn't the romance industry the biggest book genre out there, especially since more women read than men? i could be getting this wrong, really don't remember it that well, but if it's true...leave those trashy romances alone. and while i do not particularly like the ones i think she's referring to, yes, there are a lot of kinds out there, and stop lumping them together, or you'll get the "well, all teen books are about finding yourself, you stealing harvy (or whatever Harvard kids are called in annoyance)".

ok, so trying to find the one exception (excluding YA books, because there's plenty of examples in those), and i was thinking of Crusie books. would Sizzle count? (can't remember if Richard was new to the office, or if they were just finally working together...) or Crazy for You? (she just moves across town, don't know if that counts) or for those who read it (i haven't yet, so really don't know) Cindrella Deal? and i must say, Jenny does have a lot of characters moving into "towns". i think a different theme in ALL books is: someone new is introduced to the characters. or is that too obvious?

red: kcdunmyea: (which i thought said "kick dummy, eh?" when tried pronouncing it)
keeping cake dated under November means you eat all.

 
At 17/5/06 11:39 PM, talpianna said...

Do I really have to find an answer to this conundrum? I'm still trying to find a poem by Emily Dickinson that can't be sung to the tune of "The Yellow Rose of Texas"....

wuloj -- Wow! Ukrainians love our Jenny!

 
At 17/5/06 11:44 PM, Scope Dope Cherrybomb said...

Hi OH, I am here. cherry magic sheryl set up her laptop fof me but I have trouble because the keys feel too close together.

I am the terrible person that said Harlequin had a formula. I was just discussing that with my DD and she said what they mailed to me and I thought sounded like a formula were guidelines. I still think that sounds like a formula.

I am taking my computer to the hospital tomorrow, for the second time in four months. I just had the hard drive replaced and now I don't know what is wrong. DH thinks it is the power supply.



green) gjwhevc

Give Jenny whatever her eventual vacationers choose. ????

red ndfvnrhi

Now Doherty finds villains night reconning his island.

 
At 18/5/06 12:00 AM, bon cheri bomb said...

talpianna wrote: Do I really have to find an answer to this conundrum?

Yes, provided you and I are talking about the same conundrum. But I'm going to bed now, so you have about seven hours to do it. Piece of cake. Or insect. Or plant life. Your choice.

I'd offer Moot points, but I think there is an unwritten rule that only J or B can do that.

bw

mazkfr: many are zealously keeping friends refreshed

 
At 18/5/06 12:01 AM, bon cheri bomb said...

Emily Dickinson could sing?

Who knew.

bw

 
At 18/5/06 12:14 AM, amc said...

As I recall, Richard in "Sizzle" was new to the company. Linc and Daisy ("Cinderall Deal") start in one town and move to another.


jaznewy...Jugglers add zest, novelty,& energy while yipping. I think I'm tireder than I thought.

 
At 18/5/06 12:22 AM, amc said...

Jenny has some essays on the romance genre on her website (when you get to her site, click the nonfiction button on the left sidebar) that do a good job of explaining the worth of the genre. I particularly enjoyed the one about romances rewriting patriarchal fairy tales.

Yodelers tell about blue daffodils? Goodness! And this time, I really am going to bed! Night, all.

 
At 18/5/06 2:04 AM, MelZD said...

Bon Cheri Bomb--

I laughed out loud at your two stories post, because at grad school, my husband had a writing prof who gave this version of the only two stories:

A stranger comes to town.
Somebody dies.

I'm going to tell him your two!

On my nightstand:

Harrowing the Dragon, by Patricia McKillip
Testament: The Bible and History, by John Romer
Airborn, Kenneth Oppel
Night Frost, by RD Wingfield
Learning from the Left: Children's Literature, the Cold War, and Radical Politics in the United States, by Julia Mickenberg

Cheers,
MelZD

 
At 18/5/06 2:27 AM, orangehands said...

oh, and just wondering if someone knew what "book art" would be? i keep thinking designing the covers but that seems wrong so...

um...books...Pride & Prejudice? (i really don't remember much about this, just that each sentence was about three pages long and for a 100 something book it was a LONG read)
John's Bathroom Reader? oh, wait, he has history pieces of people invading...
are we including nonfiction in this?
well, the two genres i've been reading won't help at all: fantasy, in which they leave town on a quest/journey, mostly to fight a war, and mystery, where the killer and/or cops come to town.
must spend my sleeping time thinking.

and does anybody else find it funny how many books we each have near our bed? i went to the library today with 2 friends (all the cool kids are doing it) and when i said, "i wonder if i can check out another book because my library card may be full (30 books limit)" one of them gave me a weird look. nice to know i'm among good company

bon cheri bomb: anybody can offer moot points. esp. when someone answers hard questions, or when someone offers them to answer hard Q.

melzd: i like your rules too. i think (for the YA out there), we should add:
someone soul-searches. (or is that one too obvious to?)

red: kzmrjs
killing zebras makes real jokingly snails

 
At 18/5/06 3:47 AM, ZaZa said...

talpiana said...
Tekno Books is one of the leading and most successful book developers in the world.

I worked for a small place in Baltimore. They did some things similar to HP Books with cookbooks, i.e., buying up the US copyright (or maybe English-language rights) to foreign cookbooks. One of the projects I worked on was the official cookbook of the PRC (at that time) national culinary school. I got that gig because I was already teaching Chinese cooking. Basically, all I had to do was fix the English translations they provided (v. funny, some of them) and word process the package for them.
I've met writers who work for the biggies, doing coffee table books and fairly high profile cookbooks (sorry, that was my gig at the time). They were well known within the industry, but almost none of them had their name on their work. To get that in a slick book was a really big deal. Almost like being a ghost writer, except you're allowed to tell people and put it on your resume. I did some ghost writing, too. ;+))) Man, is that a trip and a half.

zdjwyjoo (blue)
zydeco dancing just while yelling, "Jenny!" often occurs

 
At 18/5/06 4:00 AM, micki said...

Plagiarism is a really important topic for a writer. What's the difference between following the "formula" for a genre, and plagiarism? What happens if you lift a plot device from someone's story, but put it in your own words, change the characters, and alter the significance?

It's a question that has been bothering me quite a bit lately. Shakespeare said there's nothing new under the sun (iirc), and some people say he was ripping off "famous" writers left and right for plots to his plays.

What's the difference between riffing and plagiarism?

(Sorry, this is the first I've heard of the Harvard girl; did she lift actual paragraphs from writers, or did she do something more ambiguous? I will have to google this one.)

For the record, I think stealing words wholesale is wrong; if you take the words, you should credit them. But where exactly do ideas, and snips of thoughts, fit in?

 
At 18/5/06 8:23 AM, DownUnderGal said...

There's supposed to only be 8 (have also heard 26 which is a wildly different figure) orignal plots in the world and writers just put their own spin on them.

Sobering thought.

gdswblac - grammar describes sentences and words but loses all clarity

 
At 18/5/06 8:42 AM, Lynn said...

Miki said: "What's the difference between following the "formula" for a genre, and plagiarism? What happens if you lift a plot device from someone's story, but put it in your own words, change the characters, and alter the significance?"

I'm not sure I ever looked at plagiarism (maybe after these posts I'll learn to spell that word correct the first time - or not) with that in mind, looking at idea as well as actual word theft. You made me curious so I looked it up. M-W online defines plagiarism as:"to steal and pass off (the ideas or words of another) as one's own : use (another's production) without crediting the source."

So I would also wonder how borrowing a plot device and making it your own would fit in that category/definition. Especially after the prior discussion concerning the two elements in every book. For that matter, day in and day out many of us have the same type of things happen - lost keys, car trouble, fight with family - does the line between what actually happened and our storytelling embellishment of said happening ever cross with the eight million books we've read?

How much of idea and intent is covered by oral history? That's something the lawyers are trying to figure out in the case of that professor in Colorado. If I understood it correctly, he is stating some of his references were oral history and therefore unable to be verified and cited in the regular manner (needs to check that APA manual).

Okay, on my desk & often the ottoman at home:

- Naked Conversations: How blogs are changing the way businesses talk with customers
- From Cover to Cover: Evaluating and Reviewing Children's Books
- The Peanut-free cafe
- Sky Boys, How they built the empire state building
- Blogs, wikis and podcasting
- Beginning CSS
- Graphic Novels: Stories to change your live
- John, Paul, George, and Ben

Yes, yes, several are kiddie lit/juvenile fiction. Part and parcel of the job. ;-)

 
At 18/5/06 8:57 AM, Deb said...

After thinking about this a while, the fact that the young lady is attending Harvard is an important point. There are more kids than slots, and it is a big deal to be accepted there. Think about the kids who have the same academic standing but didn't get accepted because they didn't stand out. The book deal had to help in that regard.

On literary style or tract housing, I found the following, an online writing course:
"E-jits Guides: Writing for E-jits". http://www.p45.net/ejitsguides/writer/4.html

"On the surface, literary style might seem to be an elusive substance. But usually it's just a simple formula."
"In one tutorial, we gave our students an assignment to write a short story involving all the important ingredients - Nobility, Emotion, Sex, Religion and Mystery. One student handed in the following story:
"My god!" cried the duchess. "I'm pregnant. Who did it?"

(The whole "course" is a hoot).

hmcwxep: heroes normally mix culprits with xtra(cheating, tsk,tsk) essential plasmids

 
At 18/5/06 9:15 AM, bon cheri bomb said...

melzd wrote: A stranger comes to town.
Somebody dies.

I'm going to tell him your two!


Ok, but be sure to tell him it isn't MY theory. If I knew to whom to attribute it, or blame for it, I would do so. Seems I'm guilty of plagiarism (ha! got the second "i" in there this time) by way of faulty memory. And it could be I remembered it wrong. It might have been "somebody dies." But I don't think that was one of the two I read about.

BTW, one of my DD's teachers requires students submit their essays to a website that checks for plagiarism. Can't remember what it's called though... hmm, seems to be a recurring problem for me. Must be senility.

And I don't have any books in my bedroom. I'd never get any sleep.

bw

rccbd: real cherrybombs can't be discouraged

 
At 18/5/06 9:48 AM, bon cheri bomb said...

deb, thanks for that link. They were all great, but my favorite was Lesson #3:

http://www.p45.net/ejitsguides/writer/3.html

bw

uocqhqk: blogger clearing its throat

 
At 18/5/06 10:08 AM, Nora said...

Orangehands said: nora, when you said "Sizzle, The Cinderella Deal, & Trust Me on This" were on your nightstand, all signed, were you bragging?


Not bragging (sorry if it came out that way) just bursting with joy! I bought them all through the eBay fundraiser for Michelle. Other dear, dear Cherries donated *their* signed books for auction. They all came in as one, big package yesterday. I was mega-thrilled. :)

Am almost finished with Cinderella Deal and am loving it!!! Wish I could be home reading it, instead of here at work reading the blog over break! ;)

 
At 18/5/06 10:08 AM, Christina B. said...

Deb said ... On literary style or tract housing, I found the following, an online writing course:
"E-jits Guides: Writing for E-jits". http://www.p45.net/ejitsguides/writer/4.html


I love it!

(blue) ftrkflkb: Flowering trees rise knowingly, flying like kites beyond.

 
At 18/5/06 10:13 AM, Cherry Magic Sheryl said...

I don't have books on my nightstand, I'd never sleep eitehr. But the trunk, side table, kitchen table, bathroom vanity, living room floor are all covered. Right now I'm int he process of reading To the Edge by Cindy Gerard
Good news for a change by David Suzuki
The Comeback Kiss by Lani Diane Rich
THe writer's Toolkit by a god among men
Alone by Lisa Gardner
I just finished Alesia Holliday's entire backlist, what a hoot
I've discovered I'm not particularly genre driven. I like a good story told by a great voice. And am open to tryi new voces all the time. Cherries haven't steered me wrong yet.
I'll be taking the laptop back over to Scope Dope this evening so she can get her daily dose of CB's. It might be long as I'm sure she'll have plenty saved up to say. We're still debating HQ's formulas. It might be semantics.

 
At 18/5/06 10:31 AM, Anonymous said...

I went online to try to find the source of the quote. I haven't yet, but I found another.

There are only 2 stories:
David vs. Goliath and
The Odd Couple

He didn't remember his source either.

 
At 18/5/06 10:41 AM, Anonymous said...

Okay, I give up. Several web sites attributed the quote "There are only 2 stories, a man goes on a journey, a man comes to town" to Tolstoy. Others said this is probably not true. I couldn't find it in my book of quotations. Therefore, I would say give it to Tolstoy unless proved otherwise.
I was coming up with too many other quotes to keep going. And even though as a librarian I can justify looking up quotes at work, I have other work to do. Story time starts in an hour.

RESting CB

 
At 18/5/06 10:58 AM, Anonymous said...

Someone - I'm too lazy to go back and look - referenced Crazy for You as not fitting the pattern of a man leaving home/a man coming to town except in CFY the man is a dog. The dog's arrival is the balancing point in the book - without the dog (and Bill's reaction) nothing in Quinn's life changes.

Also, Quinn physically leaves "home" (with both her parents and Bill) and moves "home" (to her little house) even though she never leaves town. And then there's her mom.

There's lots of leaving and arriving in CFY.

And to the DD who said that symbolism doesn't count in the moving/leaving business. Of course it counts, symbolism and context are everything. Without symbolism the Dysart Spode is just plates and cups, the Maltese Falcon is just a statue, Rosebud's just a sled and Australia's just a continent in the southern hemisphere. In romance perhaps more than any other genre the leaving home/coming home dynamic is what the story is about. The characters leave one emotional home (singleness or a previous relationship) and come to another (together).

Small illustration - before I married my husband I'd been living with my parents to save some money and pay down my student debt, that had been my home off and on for 33 years. Met my DH, we dated and just before we married we bought a house together. This house is at most eight miles from where I grew up. My husband was raised to not believe in living together before marriage and so when he was home from work (he works in another town and lives there while on shift)I told him that I would stay at my parents' place and finish packing my things.

He dropped me off after work and by supper time I missed him so much that when he called me to see how I was doing I told him I wanted to go home, home was where he was. Home wasn't my parents' place, it was with him. No matter where I had lived before that moment, my parents' farm was home to my soul but that afternoon I moved to a new home in my heart.


Blogger's trying to kill me!! Blue: kxaqqd

Kilted xenophiles angrily quash quilts decisively.

Hit preview instead of publish

blue, fbfos: Friends bring Francis orange smoothies

 
At 18/5/06 11:18 AM, bon cheri bomb said...

anon wrote: And to the DD who said that symbolism doesn't count in the moving/leaving business. Of course it counts, symbolism and context are everything.

Oh, she knows, believe me. Her statement was accompanied by a teenage eye roll and an emphatic "You're just being difficult!"

She wanted to find the exception. Me, too.

I found another assertion, that the only two stories are Cinderella (boy meets girl) and Jack and the Beanstalk (journey). Not sure that covers it as well.

bw

zkewymcx: sheesh, isn't he a director or producer?

 
At 18/5/06 11:22 AM, Christina B. (Margarita CB) said...

Books other than what's on my nightstand which I am currently reading/just finished/about to start:

c/r: Second Sight by Amanda Quick
j/f: Tell Me Lies by The Cherry, Hardscrabble Road by Jane Haddam, Don't Look Down by Crusie/Mayer, Bodyguard of Lies by Robert Doherty, DLD by Crusie/Mayer (well I read it twice)
ATS (about to start): The Old Silent by Martha Grimes; The Old Wine Shades by Martha Grimes

Will read once my libary notifies me that it is in: Guards! Guards! by Terry Pratchett. General Cherry consensus is that this is a good book to start with. And I know Cherries are never wrong.

(blue) ujdjcusd: Unusually judicious, darling Jennifer Crusie understood signing dilemma.

 
At 18/5/06 2:16 PM, Scope Dope Cherrybomb said...

I'm BACK. I took my computer into the hospital and the doctor performed emergency surgery and here we are.

I, too, have no books on my nightstand. I am currently reading 'Tell Me Lies' by our glorious heroine and 'Getting Rid of Bradley by the aforementioned authoress.

I still do not have an answer (Talpianna??) concerning the $500K the 19 yo got for her alledgedly plaigarized book. I bet Jenny and Bob didn't get that much for their first books. If so I want to know the publisher.

As for plaigerizing, I had another student at the university openly admit that she plaigerized her essays and I was livid. When I reported it nothing was done at the time which infuriated me. When confronted she said they did that all the time at home. She was from a middle eastern country that shall remain nameless. About a month later there was an article in the paper saying that a whole class had been caught plaigerizing from the internet...same country. So I guess she wasn't lying. Value system is different I guess.

Holy Hannah! Blogger god is mad at me.

red) vjfadauk

Vorsooth, Jenny finds all Doherty's audacity usually kindled. (I know it is forsooth but I took poetic license.)

 
At 18/5/06 2:20 PM, Scope Dope Cherrybomb said...

This post has been removed by the author.

 
At 18/5/06 2:23 PM, Scope Dope Cherrybomb said...

I want to know the publisher so I can send him my first three chapters of the two books I started. Who knows...may be worth something.

green) bzaow

Bob zaps all other writers.

green) ayegcm

All yealings eagerly go 2 Crusie/Mayer.

 
At 18/5/06 2:27 PM, Lynn said...

Just read a quote at lunch that almost made me 'snort' out my pop/drink (yes, it's pop in OH)and was oddly enough relevant to the plaigarism discussion and possibly a larger issue this young girl will now have with ... credibility.

"Credibility is very much like virginity. Once you lose it, it is impossible to regain" (p. 201).

Scoble, R. & Israel, S.(2006).Naked conversations: How blogs are changing the way businesses talk with customers, Hoboken, NJ: John Wiley & Song, Inc..

REsting CB said: "Story time starts in an hour." I'm envious! I really miss storytime!

 
At 18/5/06 2:45 PM, Christina B. said...

Just read a quote at lunch that almost made me 'snort' out my pop/drink ...

"Credibility is very much like virginity. Once you lose it, it is impossible to regain" (p. 201).

So many things I started to say and decided against ...

But I will say that like most values, too many people don't appreciate it until they no longer have it. Credibility I mean. To quote the god among men, "Geez, you people."

(green) kihimd: Kindling ideas haunt Irma's morbid daydreams.

 
At 18/5/06 3:13 PM, melanie said...

It's been quite some time since I read the first one, but I believe Evanovich's One for the Money might be the exception to the leaving/coming to town rule. (I tried to italicize the title there, but Blogger insisted my "tags weren't closed," whatever that means. I put in all the <> thingies!)

Stephanie, her family, Joe, Ranger, even the scary sociopath whose name escapes me--they were all already in Trenton and the whole book takes place in Trenton. The "inciting incident" (as Bob and Jenny would phrase it) was Stephanie losing her job and signing on as a bounty hunter, not any change of scenery. If I'm misremembering, though, maybe someone who has has read it more recently can correct me.

zngamo: Zoroastrians never go about making observations.

 
At 18/5/06 3:43 PM, Christina B. said...

melanie said...
It's been quite some time since I read the first one, but I believe Evanovich's One for the Money might be the exception to the leaving/coming to town rule.

I think it might depend on how much the rule relies on symbolism. It might stretch to apply to someone leaving/coming into the character's life. Joe returns to her life, and Ranger comes into it. Not to mention Lula and the wackos Stephanie goes after.

(green) csmuulvg: Cherries smite malicious usurpers under lightly vailed grove.

 
At 18/5/06 3:43 PM, Anonymous said...

Since the quote I found attributed to Tolstoy was actually "a man goes on a journey" instead of leaves home, I think One For the Money probably still fits. Stephanie goes on some kind of journey in all the ones I read. I think changing jobs could be some kind of metaphorical journey anyway.

RESting CB
wkqkjc-With knives, queens kill jesters cleanly.

 
At 18/5/06 4:45 PM, Anonymous said...

And Stephanie leaves her nice comfortable world where she had a Miata to a world where all her cars blow up.

Except the Buick.

blue, rgmiphtw. Oh for Pete's sake!

Robert grinned, "Might I put here two wildebeasts?"

 
At 18/5/06 4:45 PM, Scope Dope Cherrybomb said...

DEBORAH...WHERE ARE YOU/

We are meeting in Toronto on June 10. Details to follow. Watch for glamourgeek or cherry magic sheryl to tell you.

Hey Orangehands, fly to Toronto for that meeting with us. I would love to meet you, and bon cheri bomb and everybody else, especially would like to see Talpianna with all her references AND both her cats. Don't kill Bubbles.(see one or two posts back.)

Could you imagine what a meeting that would be. All the cherrybombs on this blog, the cherries from the cherry forums and wherever else cherries are hiding. All in one place. Wow, talk about TOTW. Hey downundergal, are you game? Colognegirl?? Toronto, June 10.

How about you, Bob and Jenny, Jenny and Bob? We could take over the Rogers Centre. I guess ballpark hot dogs would not quite cut the idea of brunch together, would it? But the dome would be big enough. I wonder, do they cater? OOps, forgot about the other great restaurants there and the hotel.


green)dhvpc

Doherty had very precise comments.

 
At 18/5/06 4:55 PM, Lori said...

We usually can (and do) lump books (and life) into categories of this or that, (Some famously smart person theorized that humans need to do it and without labels or categories there would be a lot of insane people. Can't remember who (whom?).) but it is the details we leave out during the lumping that bring the joy.

My nightstand:
The Novel Writer’s Toolkit- written by a god among man (I'm not a writer, just intrigued)
The Bible- written by God through men (Yes, I know Bible on the nightstand is cliché but its also the truth)
Orbit- John J. Nance

My Car:
Going Postal- Terry Pratchett (I heart Stephen Briggs. I get all the audio books he reads for Pratchett)
DLD-J&B (B&J) (just in case)

My Purse:
Why do men have nipples?- Mark Leyner and Billy Goldberg (Easy and not consuming. (describing the book not the nipples) Good waiting for something else book.)

Go ahead. Fine me 1 Moot Point for every parenthesis. I deserve it.

 
At 18/5/06 5:13 PM, lori said...

Okay added thinking: there is pain and all the other stuff in details too. I just like the joy a lot.

There's this wedding I have to go to June 10th, but believe me when I say I'd rather be with y'll in Toronto. Do you think I could covince them to move the wedding?

nkjub (blue)- Not kidding, Jenny understands Bob.

 
At 18/5/06 5:18 PM, glamour-geek said...

SDCB sez: DEBORAH...WHERE ARE YOU/

We are meeting in Toronto on June 10. Details to follow. Watch for glamourgeek or cherry magic sheryl to tell you.


Sure, go ahead. Make me responsible. :)

Seriously, Deborah (who's been MIA for some time now) and other Toronto-vicinity cherrybombs, it looks like a brunch/lunch gathering on June 10, when I am in T.O.

Those who specifically want me to contact them with details should mosey on over to cherryforums.com and send "emily" a private message.

Formal announcement to follow when we get the details worked out.

Lori: a sister in parentheses! Pleasure to meet you!

You know, considering the wedding Lori has to go to and proximity issues for other Cherrybombs, we've really got to get working on that teleporter. Would save Bob and Jenny some as well, because they could sleep at home every night between signings, etc.

pjtef: pretty jenny trained elegant frogs

 
At 18/5/06 5:34 PM, Scope Dope Cherrybomb said...

Lori, definitely move the wedding. This is much more important. A gathering of the clan.

glamourgeek, I thought you wanted the mob/job. Cherry magic sheryl will share with you. I can't 'cause I can't go on those other sites and I am computer-illiterate.(sp)

Speaking of illiterate, there was an item in tonight's paper saying that many of the people in this area are illiterate. How sad! Can you imagine the problems they must have in life?

So much depends on people being able to read. And to not be able to transport oneself around the world through literature, or teach oneself new things, or solve a mystery or find 'true love'. All the things we enjoy in reading. That is truly sad.

I would think that being illiterate would be terribly dangerous too. If you can't read a medicine bottle or road signs has the potential to be very dangerous. We have so much when we can read. It makes me want to go and help these people, if only I could, it is just not possible.

red) glaffrqu

Gratefully, literacy allows fellows freedom. Real quality (life), Ulysses.

 
At 18/5/06 5:48 PM, bon cheri bomb said...

scope dope cb: You are so gracious to invite me to Toronto, no one has ever done so before. And I'd love to be there, but that is the day my DD is graduating from HS. She'd probably notice if I were not in attendance, she's fairly observant. Then there are all those family members who will be in town, in my house, and they might miss me too. Maybe.

Welcome back from computer illness, we missed you.

bw

qnhsdy: queens never heard saying, "darn yec!" (been a long day, folks)

 
At 18/5/06 5:57 PM, b'gina said...

bon cheri bomb said...
zkewymcx: sheesh, isn't he a director or producer?

The cow, who ate too much grass, had pains in her zkewymcx. (They have more than one, don't they?) ;+)


Question for Bob: What's with the McGuire??? I've seen a couple places online where the book says McGuire but the writeup says Mayer. Or maybe it was the other way around.

mdhyjbj (green)
My dog has yellow jaws, by Jove!

 
At 18/5/06 6:31 PM, Kay T said...

I have been too busy at work (!) to post and read all the comments, but the $500,000 advance was split between the book packager and the authoress. So the poor 19 year old only got $250,000. Still seems like a lot.

I agree with Bob, though. Who know who actually wrote the book. The whole book packager thing is very strange is is like writing by committee, except in this case they got an attractive, Indian, teenager to be the "author."

 
At 18/5/06 7:02 PM, DownUnderGal said...

scope dope - would love to fly to Toronto for get together but alas...time, money and mortgage wait for no woman. Plus am going to UK and Positano in Italy in September and need to save pennies for that.

But am going to go to RWA national in San Francisco in 08. Will be there with my cherry accessories and cork hat.

Here's my theory about formulas - a formula is when a publishing house says - to get published the h and h must meet on page 1, they must argue on page 3, they must kiss on page 32, they must have sex on page 90, the black moment must be on page 165, it must end on page 243. The hero must have an xyz physical appearance. The heroine must have an xyz physical appearance. It must be set in xyz city and they must have xyz jobs.

Harlequin (yes, I am one of their authors) have guidelines to help aspiring authors to write the kind of stories their readership want - one thing Harlequin does really well and knows really well is their market base. They know whats going to sell and whats not. But it's general advice not this or else. In fact a lot of their guidelines can and often are broken by authors who write a damn good book. (Jenny being a good case in point).

I think it's impossible to write a totally fresh, new, never been written before plot. ALL stories have plots that have been done before or elements of things that have been done before - its just the autors ability to make it SEEM fresh.

Harry Potter is an excellent example. Boy/girl wizard - been done before. But OMG, what a book, what brilliant stories.

On my bedside table - Fast Women, have just read it for the 3rd time and The Da Vinci Code, which has been there for about 2 months but I just can't work myself up to opening it. I can't explain why - think the hype has totally turned me off.

xbrik - xceptionally bright readers inspire kudos

 
At 18/5/06 7:10 PM, glamour-geek said...

downundergal sez: But am going to go to RWA national in San Francisco in 08

Oh, great. A chance to meet a whole bunch of you and I'll probably have moved long before then (like, maybe, this August...). *shrug* This too shall pass.

vankehv: vanquish all nomadic kumquats, even honorable villains!
(mine almost always seem to be red these days...)

 
At 18/5/06 7:22 PM, orangehands said...

micki asked "What's the difference between riffing and plagiarism?"

the paragraphs the girl stole were almost word for word, sometimes the phrase being in a different order, but it is an obvious lift. as to the general question, maybe it's like pornography- you know it when you see it, and everybody has a different idea on what it is. i think mainly it's taking actual words = plagerism. also, taking words and saying "don't remember who said them but this is what they said" is allowed because your telling people they aren't your words, which is what counts. (and i think i remember reading somewhere that Shakespeare stole ideas more than blocks of words, but it could be the latter, not the former).

deb: "E-jits Guides: Writing for E-jits". was a great site, thanks.

Christina B. (Margarita CB): just started reading Terry Pratchett's booklist, in no order. i am loving him! am in the middle of Monstrous Regiment. (i will never look at socks the same way).

scope dope CB: thank you for the invite, and glad your computer is healthy again. your mention of illiterate people reminded me of this lesson we learnt on Todorov (i think that's how you spell the name) in social institutions about the mental differences between literate and illiterate people (like how an oral culture does not have the same flexibility as literate cultures do), in relation to the Spaniards & Cortez beating the Aztecs & Montezuma back in the day.

b'gina: i believe cows have 7 stomachs/zkewymcx. which i always found weird, because we only have one and eat a lot harder things than grass, but to each his own anatomy.

San Fran 08: i will be at Santa Cruz at that time, so i can make the drive. i can stay at my friend's for the weekened and met up with CBs! YEAH! only 2 more years!

red: vnnzu:
voices never notice zoo uncles

red: zoaygrhl:
Zeus- over at your grandma's- reads Harlequin loves

 
At 18/5/06 7:58 PM, Lou said...

Cows have four (4) stomachs!

qlhcuf
quickly love him Crusie utilizing fun

 
At 18/5/06 8:07 PM, talpianna said...

orangehands said...

tal- the cat in the article you posted ("Bubbles") looks drugged.



Of course he does! J.T. (or Bob) drug him out of the swamp, after all!

Here is a link to the Harlequin "guidelines." Make up your own mind: http://www.eharlequin.com/cms/learntowrite/ltwArticle.jhtml?pageID=021101wu00001

Micki, if you look at the Wikipedia link in my first post above, you'll find all you need to know about the young lady from Harvard. (Oooh, I feel a limerick coming on....)

Originality as a virtue is a fairly modern invention. In medieval times, writers always claimed to be retelling a story from an ancient author (hence the term "authority," I suppose). In fact, Chaucer invented a source for TROILUS AND CRISEYDE, "myn auctour Lollius," when in fact he was telling a story from the all-too-contemporary Boccaccio. I don't think that making up something from scratch was considered a virtue until the Romantic Era.

Some of Shakespeare's best passages were lifted word-for-word from North's translation of Plutarch's LIVES. As T.S. Eliot put in, "Good poets borrow. Great poets steal."

For the universal story, read Christopher Vogler's THE WRITER'S JOURNEY, based on Joseph Campbell's THE HERO WITH A THOUSAND FACES: summarized in this review: http://www.suite101.com/article.cfm/writers/4615

Here's a summary of the stages:

Ordinary World
Call to Adventure
Refusal of the Call
Meeting With the Mentor
Crossing the First Threshold
Tests, Allies, Enemies
Approach
Supreme Ordeal
Reward
The Road Back
Resurrection
Return With the Elixir


Lynn, the problem with the Colorado professor is not that he used oral history sources, it's that he only claimed them after being challenged and there's no proof he had any real sources.

ctntxo --Crusie, taunt not Talpianna, Xavier opines.

 
At 18/5/06 8:30 PM, orangehands said...

i remember that list (my school taught some really random things over the years)though after Supreme Ordeal i think there was just 2, not 4, things, but heck if i can remember them.

4 stomachs, 7 stomachs. tomato, tomahto. (no, thanks for clearifying, lou)

"An empty stomach is not a good political adviser."
- Albert Einstein

which makes you wonder why cows haven't taken over the world yet.

blue: idptuf:
in dating, pick the underwear faithfully

 
At 18/5/06 10:02 PM, MelZD said...

Okay, I realize this discussion has moved on, but the stupid librarian gene wouldn't let me stop looking for the source of the "only two stories" quotes, so I asked my husband, and he said that his class had been taught by Kurt Vonnegut, who said he was quoting John Gardner.

Then we Googled Gardner and stranger and lots of people quote him as saying, "Either you go on a journey, or a stranger comes to town." Which is essentially bcb's version. But we can't find anyone saying it was in a book--lots of people saying, "Oh, I heard him speak and he said this..." And we can't see anyone saying "Somebody dies," so now my husband can't figure out if the "Somebody dies" part is Vonnegut's addition, or himself not remembering correctly, because it's been, like, a million years since the course.

Thanks, I feel better, please go right back to the current conversation... :)

MelZD

mdaszm: my daughter and son Zamboni madly

 
At 18/5/06 11:53 PM, Scope Dope Cherrybomb said...

Okay, I thought cows only had two stomachs. So what do I know?

For those of you who have not missed it yet tonight tune in The Daily Show with John Stewart. He weighed in on the topic of the Harvard student and plaigerism and then showed that an NBC sportscaster at this year's Kentucky Derby plaigerized The West Wing word-for-word from a show four years ago.

bon cheri bomb just bring everyone to Toronto with you. We could have a good time. Downundergal what does the UK have that Toronto does not? Orangehands, you thanked me for the invitation but you didn't say whether you were coming.

I have not heard from Bob and Jenny about whether they will come to meet us for brunch in Toronto either. Well?

Kay t thanks for the answer on the $500k. That is unreal.

Talianna, you know by giving that site for Harlequin's guidelines you are backing up Cherry Magic Sheryl. She has been bringing up 'formula' all night so I get it.

Did anyone watch "ER" tonight? Now we have to wait all summer to find out what happens to Abby et al. Darn!

For the Canadians who might want to wat ch the Daily Show with Jon Stewart it is on CTV at midnight edt.

red) yrhyfnix

You really have your files nicely indexed, Xavier.

red) oiabins

Ordinarily, I admit Bob is nice, sometimes.

 
At 19/5/06 12:05 AM, bon cheri bomb said...

I really appreciate everyone’s effort and input re this coming-and-going stuff. It's gone a long way toward solving the mystery. It has occurred to me that the “stories” I’ve read that might actually be an exception are chick-lit. Which I hate. I know some of you must love them, and some of you maybe write them, so sorry about that. But to me it’s just navel-gazing, self-indulgent whining. And no one goes on a journey and no one comes to town. At least, it doesn’t seem to be a requirement in the ones I’ve read. And I’m starting to wonder if that is exactly why I can’t stand to read them. Is YA fiction the same way? Maybe the theory should be “There are only two worthwhile stories…”

I blame Bob for all of this. I mean, if he hadn’t gotten all serious and cerebral and mentioned The Origin of Consciousness and started me thinking Deep Thoughts, well, I wouldn’t have encouraged everyone to discuss Tolstoy’s theory of story. Not that I knew it was (perhaps) Tolstoy’s theory. Good thing that guy is already dead (Tolstoy, not Bob. Geez.) because otherwise I’d give serious thought to tracking him down and stringing him up by his thumbs for making me think this hard during the workweek.

So yeah, it’s all Bob’s fault. Good thing he is a God Among Men. Maybe we should talk about shoes. Or chocolate.

Maybe tomorrow. I'm going to bed.

bw

zpszd: as if Russian literary philosophy isn't enough for one day?

 
At 19/5/06 12:53 AM, talpianna said...

My own opinion is that every story is a quest, and it ends in either marriage (comedy) or death (tragedy).

xazrvwos -- Xavier and Zoe...recreational vehicle...wow! Off-the-wall sex!

Oops!

uhgezia -- Under her girdle, Elizabeth's zits itch awfully.

 
At 19/5/06 2:27 AM, orangehands said...

tal- isn't that a little shakespearen? (is he the one who said that, or was it my teacher in ninth grade? eh, they're both pretty similar)

scope dope: my chances of coming to the Toronto meeting are borderline "no chance" and "almost no chance", and while i really hope i do i also think for some reason that's prom (which isn't really a selling point, mind you, but apparently i'm going so...). maybe i can, i hope i can go, but it seems doubtful. ah!!! when do i get to meet some CBs?

and ER (yes, MAYBE a SPOILER): forget about Abby, what about Jerry? i haven't started liking Abby since this year, but Jerry was great from the start. and i must say, they did a good job. the shows been going on a quick downslide for a long time, in fact it hit the bottom a couple of times, but tonight's episode was good. they hooked me for sept when the show comes back.

bon cheri bomb: no, YA is good, even if it doesn't fit the requirement theory, and you know how kids are, always breaking the rules, so this makes sense. YA does some really good stuff (and like every genre, some really bad ones too).

have you noticed for the "serious" post we have really long answers, or at least longer than usual? and also, another observation, but i think thursdays are slower in J&B Blog World.

red: hmyuorj:
humor makes you understand obviously rich jerks.

 
At 19/5/06 3:50 AM, DownUnderGal said...

scope dope - Toronto doesn't have my editor and hence no chance to write it off on my tax ;-).
Frisco on the other hand...conference - fully tax deductible :-)
ER - very behind here in Oz - Abby just pregnant - dont tell me what happens. Would just like to whinge as a nurse though that they talk all the time about when Carter left and how he was the only one of the original cast left - hello!! What about the nurses? We have Jerry and the black dude and the other black nurse who lost all that weight and has put it back on again - sorry can't remember their names off the top of my head - am VERY bad nurse. But they've been there since the beginning. Oh hang on is it Hele? Sorry don't know how to spell that. And the black guys name start with M? I think. Damn! Should know their names because like any good nurse, you might not remember their names but you need them around because they make the place run.
Have ot go to a fancy dress 40th B'day party now. Am going as Barbara Cartland - little fluffy dog and all.
efiqg - emergency (room) features infintely quick girls

 
At 19/5/06 9:05 AM, bon cheri bomb said...

I was awake half the night thinking about it -- I know, I am so strange -- so I apologize if this is incomprehensible. The essence of storytelling is the journey. It can be physical, but is often emotional, spiritual, psychological, intellectual, symbolic, whatever. Good stories involve more than one. But the journey is essential and is the catalyst that brings change. (I think it is the lack of a journey that makes me dislike chick-lit. Of course, the chick-lit journey could be so subtle as to be no journey at all and I am just not perceptive enough to see it.)

Anyway, a story moves from point A to point B and along the way, stuff happens. And there are really only two ways to tell about a journey: you can tell it from the point of view of the traveler, or from the point of view of someone watching the traveler move toward them.

You could try to tell it from the POV of someone watching the traveler move away, but it would be a short, boring story. “John stood sullenly watching Mary ride away on her trusty steed, off to discover new lands…” You could maybe drag it out until she was no more than a speck on the horizon, but why? Of course, if you tell the journey from Mary’s POV, you have a story. Or from the POV of the guy in the next town watching a woman ride toward him, you have a story. Same story, different perspective.

And if that is what Tolstoy (or whoever) was trying to say, that every story is a journey and there are only two perspectives from which to tell about a journey, then that makes sense to me. So to find an exception is to find a story without a journey. And I, for one, can stop looking.

Of course, I could be wrong. Happens on a regular basis.

bw

 
At 19/5/06 10:02 AM, colognegrrl said...

Well, Toronto...
I've never been there and I guess this will remain so for the near future. First, son no. 1 has his birthday on that day (might be not so important if he weren't coming home for that, so...)

Besides, I already spent a considerable amount on airline tickets for son no. 2 and daughter to go to various places this summer. Poor mother's destiny is to stay home and hopefully sell her first novel (offer is on the table, agent says will happen soon). But once I'm rich and famous (got to find that publisher advancing the 500k, I'd even find my own words for that book) I'll be in Toronto and all over the rest of the world.

Till then, there is still the blog.

By the way: nobody mentioned Marian Keyes novels on their list. One of my favorites. Writes about serious problems with a wicked sense of humour. Try "Sushi for Beginners".

 
At 19/5/06 10:27 AM, glamour-geek said...

downundergirl, for the record, and so you can "blend in" (ahem, as long as you don't talk, I guess, what with the accent and all!), no one here in the area calls it "Frisco." That's a tourist thing for outsiders. Here, at best, it's San Fran. Now you are prepared for your 08 trip. :)

I think some chick lit has the journey, but as with all genres, there is good, bad and ugly.

And now we've done it. well over 100 comments so Bob will never be able to read the greatness of our wisdom...

 
At 19/5/06 10:40 AM, Christina B. said...

bon cheri bomb said...
It has occurred to me that the “stories” I’ve read that might actually be an exception are chick-lit.

If we are defining chick-lit (and forgive if at some point I slip and refer to it as chiclets - its coming, I just know it), you mean Marian Keyes, Lauren Weisberger et al. I'm not sure they qualify as exceptions as there's usually a journey involved even only of the spirituals/emotional variety.

"Of course, the chick-lit journey could be so subtle as to be no journey at all"

We always seem to circle back around to Elizabeth Bishop, don't we?

(red) wlmca: Wilma loves making creamed asparagus.

 
At 19/5/06 11:00 AM, glamour-geek said...

christina b sez: We always seem to circle back around to Elizabeth Bishop, don't we?

That's because her influence is so subtle as to be no influence at all. *ducks thrown tomato*

I agree: chick lit=chiclets. Do those still exist?

 
At 19/5/06 11:09 AM, colognegrrl said...

Now I feel I must defend "Chick Lit" author Marian Keyes (even if I don't even know whether Chick Lit is a derogatory term) but I see a definite element of journey or transition in her books which gets the story started - like Lisa being transferred to Dublin or Claire's husband walking out on her on the day of their daughter's birth. I think it's basically the element of change and, hey, without change, no story.

By the way, I wasn't able to open the link to the Harlequin guidelines. Did everybody else get there before me and then the site was closed?

bovrdej: Bob onstage very rarely, definitely evading Jenny

 
At 19/5/06 11:41 AM, Chistina B. said...

colognegrrl said...
Now I feel I must defend "Chick Lit" author Marian Keyes

Oh, I'm not knocking her books. I think she writes very well. Hers are not what I want to read as a steady diet but I have read them and will again.

GG: I think they are still around, though I haven't had them in years and years.

(blue) pcywez: Polite cherries yield wisely entering zoos.

 
At 19/5/06 11:56 AM, Lori said...

colognegrrl: the link didn't work for me but it did work to copy and paste. Maybe I can get it to work here .

"Chick-lit" in general, is not something I gravitate towards. I have enjoyed Keyes’ and Heller's books because of their outlook, but don't feel the voracious need read them all. Now chicklets, I loved. They were just too fun to use as fake teeth.

fuyywrkw (green): Funky undergarments yacked yucky work-related kitschy words.

 
At 19/5/06 12:03 PM, Anonymous said...

I've only read a few books that come with the chick lit label. What I have noticed about them is that they may have some romance, and some sex, and the characters may grow during the course of the story, but there is no HEA. So, no I don't like chick lit. I want the HEA. I don't have it in my real life, so I want it in my fantasy life.

And I am getting incredibly jealous of all these CB's getting together other places. Are there any other Texas CB's that want to meet. I'm willing to travel to Dallas, Houston ( r even Austin or San Antonio if we wait til August.)

RESting CB

gywlnl-Great yex will leave no losers.

 
At 19/5/06 12:59 PM, bon cheri bomb said...

Well, ok, I seem to remember enjoying Keyes, and I do like Heller. And even the chick-lit that I don't enjoy has been well-written. Obviously a lot of professional people take it seriously and do it well and that deserves respect.

But at the end of the book I put it down and think, "What the heck was that?" Might be because I am not a "chick," but I don't get it that the journey is about discovering your nail polish color doesn't match the outfit you just borrowed from your roommate without her permission. Swear to Bob, the was the point in one I read.

So the lack is in me, not the genre or the writing. Just not my cup of tea.

bw

 
At 19/5/06 1:44 PM, Christina B. said...

bon cheri bomb said...
And even the chick-lit that I don't enjoy has been well-written. Obviously a lot of professional people take it seriously and do it well and that deserves respect.

Which brings us very nicely full circle to Whitney Otto's comment and why it rubbed me wrong (not that way, geez.) If Otto doesn't like romance, that's fine: different folks/different strokes. But she didn't need to disrespect an entire genre because its not to her taste. That was just tacky.

(red) ivdcmeu: Indubitably Victor does control many entertaining undertakings.

 
At 19/5/06 2:21 PM, djr said...

Anonymous (Resting CB) -
where in Texas? I'm across in Lafayette, Louisiana - I think there are another 1 or 2 here in Louisiana as well. Maybe we can all meet at the border!

 
At 19/5/06 2:59 PM, Anonymous said...

djr - I'm in the Beaumont area, so Louisiana would be good for me too. One of my best friends lives in Baton Rouge,I could make a weekend of it.

RESting CB

psdjn- a really angry magical creature.

Peter, sadly, doesn't joke naturally.

 
At 19/5/06 3:09 PM, glamour-geek said...

anonymous in TX sez:
psdjn- a really angry magical creature.


Oh, you sweetheart! Thank you SO much for that laugh!

I highly recommend all of you gather where you are, if you can, with other area cherrybombs. The San Francisco dinner was mostly a discussion of books and authors and it was VERY cool to talk to others who just really loved reading. We are a breed apart. All different, but all interesting.

pgxumrqy: please god, xavier uttered. make rachel quit yelling.

 
At 19/5/06 3:44 PM, Christina B. (Margarita CB) said...

glamour-geek said...
I highly recommend all of you gather where you are, if you can, with other area cherrybombs.

Its always fun to get together with people who share your interest in something. Especially if you usually feel like a geek on the topic. Very few of my friends are big readers. They read the latest Oprah recommendation because everyone else does. Or maybe they have that one that someone gave them for a birthday, or that they drag with them when they know they'll have a wait.

But they look at me oddly when I say that I can't have lunch with them today because I have a new book/just at the good part in my book/want to finish the last chapters in my book.

Life is just something that keeps intruding on my reading time!

(blue) hoxkhent: that noise old men make prior to using the spitoon.

Hopelessly optimistic, Xavier's (God love him)kitty howled elegantly near Talpianna.

phooey.

(blue) xowfku: Xenophobic ostriches woefully fail kite undertaking.

 
At 19/5/06 3:50 PM, glamour-geek said...

christina b: I hear ya. I got in a lot of trouble in jr. high French class because I was always in the middle of some book. I wanted to learn (more) French, but I wanted to read the next section/paragraph/chapter more. As a child and teen, I spent many happy weekends in bed reading.

Apparently it pays to be a geek: In addition to having learned many things, all that indoor time means I never got sun damage and people always think I'm 6-10 years younger than I am.

dotpihut: doherty often told pilots: "I have utter trust."

 
At 19/5/06 3:54 PM, Anonymous said...

Christina B said "life is just something that keeps intruding on my reading time"

I can relate to that. There are some really sweet nice ladies here at work that always want to talk to me when I am reading on my lunch break. And I feel like such a jerk because I just wish they would leave me alone to finish my chapter before I have to go back to work.

And Glamour-geek, you are welcome. I thought it was pretty good myself.

RESting CB

egxdaf- Eagles get eXhausted during a flight.

 
At 19/5/06 3:58 PM, Louis said...

I'm with all of you...read, read.

My record is five books in one day...I was about 14 or 15 then...now i"m good to finish one a day.

pfauu
red

people find authors usually unique

nope

yigrl

young idiots give Robert love

 
At 19/5/06 4:13 PM, Christina B. (Margarita CB) said...

Isn't it hand that fate gives us people who want to write as badly as we want to read? A nice ying/yang thing.

(blue) zcvcrifm: Zoo creature verifications cause rollickingly infamous funny moments.

 
At 19/5/06 5:31 PM, orangehands said...

bon cheri bomb: i liked what you said, and i think it goes with what colognegrrl said ("I think it's basically the element of change and, hey, without change, no story.").

chick-lit: well, some was fine, like
Marian Keyes, and some bordered on the idiotic. but then (no throwing rocks) i find most romance books are like that for me. there are some great ones (hi Jenny), some good, but a lot of romance i read and don't enjoy. mostly i stick with stories that have a plot line of some sort, and then as a side benny there is a romance, rather than the story is the romance and then there's a side benny of another plot. but yes, you never knock a whole genre, esp. if you haven't read any of it.

g-g: yes, chiclets still exist. i get them at the 99 cents store. (plus, isn't that just the Spainish word for "gum", so technically won't they always exist as long as bubble gum is around, which will be here with the cockroaches till the end of time?)

i have that- people looking at me weirdly because i just want to finish that next page (and then the next one, and the next one, and the...)i have a few friends like that, so it's very cool, esp. since we share books. books are amazing. i love libraries. and bookstores. and book people. geez, i'm getting a hard case of warm-fuzzies towards all of them now. books. there's not enough good people can say about books.

green: tpambhrd:
true, picking a monkey's banana has real dilemma

 
At 19/5/06 6:13 PM, Lou said...

Oh God - I can so relate - people wanted to talk with you when all you want to do is read on...and on... and on... What is wrong with those people, can't they see we are busy??? And yes, thank God for good authors who keep writing so that we can keep buying and reading!! - And being as it is Friday afternoon - thank God for weekends! Everyone have a good one!!

hhkngxu
his hands knowingly nudged gals, Xena upset

 
At 19/5/06 7:39 PM, Laura V said...

'chiclets still exist. i get them at the 99 cents store. (plus, isn't that just the Spainish word for "gum" '

Almost. The Spanish for chewing-gum is 'chicle'.

bvgld - big Vogon Googled large database (the word was green, which made me think of aliens)

 
At 19/5/06 8:00 PM, ZaZa said...

forget who said...
Are there any other Texas CB's that want to meet. I'm willing to travel to Dallas, Houston ( r even Austin or San Antonio if we wait til August.)

Brenda Bradshaw is in Texas, too, not sure where. She's on here every now and again, if you want to look for her name and email her. (or if she doesn't see this on her own and post about it)

iwkbpm (blue)
Iris wanted kilted Bob passionately, Mavis

Nope. zfdisd (red)
Zoe forced Douglas into slowing down

Oh, man! mhhwfx (blue)
Manny had half way fancied Xena

 
At 19/5/06 8:13 PM, bon cheri bomb said...

BTW, are any of you planning to travel to Atlanta in July for RWA national conference?

I'll be there, but don't let that deter you.

bw

dsbscji: don't say bad stuff, causing jenny injury

 
At 19/5/06 9:21 PM, orangehands said...

bon cheri bomb: LOL. wish i could go, but very, very doubtful. geez, school, then job, it's all screwing with my CB meetings. i really may have to wait till 08 in San Fran. AHHHHH!!!!

red: hpxlm:

happy people, Xavier likes much.

 
At 20/5/06 4:03 AM, talpianna said...

OH: I don't see why you need to bother finishing school when I have offered to employ you as my full-time maid at the munificent wage of $1.17 an hour!

frgees -- Belonging to the Duchess of York

 
At 20/5/06 12:50 PM, Scope Dope Cherrybomb said...

Oh Talpainna, you are so generous. I bet Orangehands can't wait to be your full time maide for $11.17 an hour did you say? Isn't that above minimum wage in the US? What a kind person you are. For that price, take her up on it, OH.

In case it doesn't come up, this is Scope Dope weighing in on OH's employment opportunities. I am having to write this at the library. I was 80 comments behind when I logged on. Lots of reading.

My computer was totally rebuilt yesterday and now it can't find the modem so I couldn't come on board. But as I have said before DD, Cherry Magic Sheryl, works at the local library and we have several computers here. DD is coming over tonight to try and get me up an running. So if you don't hear from me in awhile you know why.

tfwibgni green

To finish writing I blogged. Got needed instructions.

 
At 20/5/06 1:04 PM, orangehands said...

we'll miss you scope dope.

and tal, can't thank you enough, really, six dollars BELOW the min. wage, i believe. and as a maid. you must know how much i LOVE cleaning.

(can't you just see the sarcasm flooding?)

green: monapgtg:
My, only near a pig's gate Talpianna goes.

 
At 20/5/06 7:55 PM, talpianna said...

Orangehands, don't forget that this offer includes five meals a week and a half-holiday every other Leap Year!

I know, I know, I'm spoiling you!

ofnegt -- Orangehands: Furniture--neaten. Elephants--groom. Talpianna (your instructions for the day)

 
At 20/5/06 8:37 PM, orangehands said...

actually, grooming elephants can be fun. (ok, no that isn't actual personal experience talking, but...)

spoiling. *snort* too kind, tal, too kind.

blue: yolylyw (what the heck?)

you, off laughing, you, love, you win.
(this is not in any way directed to tal)

 
At 20/5/06 10:32 PM, talpianna said...

(Notice that she fails to wonder how I manage to keep elephants--plural!--in a mole's burrow. This is the kind of intellectual acuity that is going to cause her to flunk out of school and wind up gratefully seizing on my offer of congenial employment....)

ftagmhfb -- Fussy Talpianna asks groveling maid, "Hot furry balloons?"

 
At 20/5/06 11:17 PM, ConnectTheDots said...

Would just like to whinge as a nurse though that they talk all the time about when Carter left and how he was the only one of the original cast left - hello!! What about the nurses?

The nurses either haven't been there from Day 1, or they've come and gone. Jerry was one of the ones you pointed out. But Jerry left for a while. Remember, that's when Frank started. And then Jerry came back and Frank and Jerry have been bickering ever since. Malik (aka "the black dude"), Chuny, Haleh, they've been in and out over the years as they've had other projects (and if you look, some of them show up all over the place on tv). But none of them have been there all the time. At the time that he finally left, Carter was the only major player to have been on the show since Day 1 w/o a break.

 
At 21/5/06 12:59 PM, orangehands said...

connectthedots: and then Carter was gone, which was horrible.

tal- ha ha. (ok, that was sacrasm but it really was LOL). i just figured as the Mole Leader who were given a big passsage ABOVE ground that could house elephants. i guess as a Mole Leader you don't get as much as i thought...oh well.

green: smkgfg:
smoking may keep green fungus growing

 
At 22/5/06 5:32 AM, talpianna said...

OH: Has it occurred to you that if you accept the position as my maid, sleeping in the ashes and all, sooner or later you get the Fairy Godmother and Prince bit thrown in?

(Not telling her I don't have a fireplace....)

dyejzqi -- Do you ever, Jenny, zap Quills invidiously?

(Just wait, Blogger--there's a cat sleeping on my desk, and I'm about to pounce on her....)

 
At 22/5/06 7:07 PM, orangehands said...

frankly, tal, the prince wasn't that great. he needed a SHOE to figure out the "love of his life" (re: lust of his life). and that godmother...didn't even ask the mice if they wanted to be horses, or explain why it had to be 12 and not say, 1 or 2 am, or even give her that great of shoes. (glass? they'd break in a second). nah, i'll keep my min. wage from other places.

BLOGGER GOD SPEAKING. I SAY, TAL, I REALLY DON'T WANT ANYMORE CATS. HOWEVER, A NICE STEAK WOULD BE APPRECIATED. I DO LIKE MY COWS. OR A NICE GOLDEN DUCK, WITH ORANGE SAUCE. MUCH APPRECIATED.

blue:kigpsrsq:
keeping in grand pig style, Rita says, "QUIET!!!!"

 
At 23/5/06 4:51 PM, Scope Dope Cherrybomb said...

Orangehands and Talpianna, neither of you was paying attention. I said OH, the great sacrificer and maid gets $11.17 an hour. That is eleven dollars and seventeen cents. Much better than minimum wage in either country. That was not a typo.

Blogger God probably is tired of cats. Tal keeps sending him so many. Now she wants to sacrifice us.


blue czwko

Crusie zippily writes keeping options.

 
At 23/5/06 6:48 PM, talpianna said...

I am not negotiating OH's pay scale with YOU!

odicsr -- Odalisques, Doherty? Iced cocktails? Stewed rhinoceros?

 
At 23/5/06 7:08 PM, orangehands said...

you guys, $11.17 an hour or $1.17 an hour, I AM NOT WORKING FOR TALPIANNA! frankly, it's not even about money anymore or that i hate cleaning. it's about the realistic fear that i will wake up, find myself tied to an altar, and have tal coming at me going "blogger god wants human flesh", a knife/dagger in hand. *shudder*

wow. i guess pretending to be blogger god isn't so good. now I'M not getting verifications. geez, tal, you got a cat i can borrow?

green: vpivhtd:
vipers pick Izzy's viper's hat to destroy

 
At 23/5/06 8:24 PM, talpianna said...

Don't be silly, OH. If I sacrifice you, who will empty the litterbox, wash the windows, scrub the floors, mow the lawn, prune the bouganvillia, do the shopping, vacuum daily, and a few other minor menial tasks, while I float in the pool sipping my Green Ghost margarita?

gxksqff -- Glamorous Xenia kisses Senator Quayle fiercely. Fool!

 
At 23/5/06 8:29 PM, orangehands said...

tal: if you could talk ME into doing that, you will easily find another person. so yes, i would worry. (seriously, that would be some powerful persuasion, and while your good, no one is THAT good).

blue: dkbhfonu (there goes the theory blue is easier):

dogs keep biting his family. oh, none understand...

 
At 24/5/06 12:56 AM, Scope Dope Cherrybomb said...

Talpianna, didn't you hear? I am Orangehands agent. You HAVE TO negotiate with me. It sounds like even $11.17 isn't enough. You will have to vanquish her foes and rid her of her fears first.

red rwvur

Robert writes very urgent reports. (On Talpianna, who is the leader of the TOTW gang, or at least one of them>)

 
At 24/5/06 1:04 AM, Scope Dope Cherrybomb said...

On second thought Orangehands, as your agent, I have to tell you that $11.17 for cleaning a mole hole is pretty good money. Take it, spend the three minutes cleaning and run.

red cubdes

Crusie urges Bob's Deb 2 evaluate synopses.

blue ocpvuz

Occassionally Crusie practices very unusual zen.

 
At 24/5/06 1:11 AM, orangehands said...

scope dope: (shout of joy, which for the life of me i can not think of how to spell right, starts with a y and then blank mind), my agent's back. but SDCB: to " vanquish [my] foes", she'd have to delete herself. and despite her penchant for giving me weird surgeries and trying to make me work, she does have a wonderful wit. but thank you for making her try.

yes, Shel is the best. and that is a great story. although i never minded going to my dentist. my first one had a room full of toys that were AWESOME (yes, i still remember them and where they were in the room), and then when he moved, i started to like boys, and my new dentist always has a really cute dental assistant. model-worthy, some of them. and all very nice. and cute. plus, like how my teeth feel clean afterwards. and that is the story of the dentist and me. Igor and the Two Dentist. has a nice ring.

 
At 24/5/06 1:13 AM, orangehands said...

i guess that would be Igor and the Two Dentists, with an s at the end. ok, no more playtime, back to hw.

cuz i immediately saw it:
gcosfc:
goats call out, "San Fran-Cisco" (remember, sing the last two words like the song)

 
At 24/5/06 1:37 PM, Scope Dope Cherrybomb said...

She (Talpianna)does have a great wit but she has this really viscious streak too, which I find a little scary. But anything for you, OH. I will face the demon in his/her den or mole hole or on what ever battlefield she chooses. I am in protector/nurturer mode.

blue auizknw

As usual I zapped kindly night watchmen.

 
At 24/5/06 7:07 PM, orangehands said...

scope dope said " I am in protector/nurturer mode." i love when you get in that mood. better watch out tal, cuz nothing is fiercer than a woman in protector mode.

red: sqktivbd:
"sometimes," quiet Kyle tells Ivy, "voices bring destruction"

 
At 24/5/06 7:58 PM, talpianna said...

OH: Nothing fiercer? Ever seen a Mole in "attacked in her burrow and defending herself" mode?

kzutvr -- Kamikaze zoologists urge Talpianna, "Victory, rule!"

 
At 24/5/06 8:09 PM, orangehands said...

nope, scope dope (military SD) wins, hands down. after all, moles may be fierce, but they're still kind of small. :)

 
At 25/5/06 12:16 AM, Scope Dope Cherrybomb said...

Trust in me, Orangehands. As I have said many times before I have your back.

Moles are kind of small. She may get a few bites in but I will wear my mole resistant clothing and special mole resistant gloves.

Being ex-military I can just go on the net and call in re-inforcements. Bob may even answer the call. Don't worry, Munchkin I will protect you.

blue Other groups needn't interfere, Talpianna. Victory rules you say, and Victory will be mine.

 
At 25/5/06 1:40 AM, talpianna said...

Mole, a second-generation Army brat, will simply outwit you.

cytjdilv -- Cover your tails, juvenile and Dope--I love victory!

 
At 25/5/06 1:55 AM, orangehands said...

tal: doubtful. scope dope can be very sneaky. and you only have so many cats left to sacrifice. (but you do good verifications, that's for sure)

Bob would definitely come to "re-enforcement call". it's bred into military people all over the world. heck, even as a second generation, tal may feel the need to answer your call against herself.

red: janjz:
jabbing acts never join zoos. (they belong in circuses)

and, it's bedtime for Igor/Munchkin/Ignore/OH, who needs the sleep. (i didn't start taking naps until high school, and i had a nice 2 hour one today)

 
At 25/5/06 10:59 PM, Scope Dope Cherrybomb said...

I am an 'army brat too. My dad served in WWII and stayed in the militia until he died so I am a long-standing army brat. Plus I am military trained; been gassed, shot rifles, guided aircraft, even yours (USAF SAC), read meterology reports, gave meteorology reports etc.

The Meteorology reports would be important to know so that I would know when the rain would come and wash out Tal's mole hole. Best time to attack. So it's okay, orangehands, I have everything under control.

red viqgpjfk

Very important question. Guys prefer Jenny for kissing? (There goes my love life.)

 
At 26/5/06 1:06 AM, orangehands said...

scope dope: loved your verification.

good to know you have things under control. i should get back to the sacrificing now.

red:qdegdcej:
"quiet!" demands Eve. "God determines cooking Eve jr."

 

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