Warning: Some Violence and Much Strong Language.SHE WROTE: What We're Discussing Now
We're not fighting.
We're DISCUSSING the plot of Agnes. Here's an e-mail from Bob, telling me that usually when he plots, he has . . .
". . . a series of reversals. Where the hero always gets slammed. Has to pick himself, get going, and gets slammed again and go in a different direction. Never that there damn romantic plot to worry about. That complicates things. See THAT'S why you kill the love interest off. Simplifies things. So if we have the second hitman kill Agnes then what we got is a revenge book which are really cool and simple to write."
Discussion then ensued. And continues.
Back later.
46 Comments:
Virgin Blog!!! I win! :)
I have an idea.
Make it a revenge book, but instead of killing Agnes, have the second hitman kill Shane (that's The Hitman's name, right?)
And then have Agnes take her revenge, using all sorts of kitchen implements.
Death by Cheese Grater. Ouch.
I like Heather's idea.
First though write "Agnes and the Hitman" the way you intended to write it since you now have all of us hooked on that. Then write your revenge book.
Stick with it Bob. I know you can do it. I have faith in you. I have read your books. They are good so I know you can stretch a little and put in more yec.
blue ihkfy
Individuals're happy killing finks, yearly.
Oooooh. Heather. Good one.
Okay Jenny. Tell Bob its an interesting idea but you have a new twist. You're going to kill of HIS character and then YOUR character will exact revenge. Then you won't have to worry about that messy romance angle. You can just go around picking off characters until there's no one but Agnes left. I suggest sending Shane down to the river with the flamingos, Louie and Francois. Then she can write her damn column in peace.
See how he likes them apples.
I think Kevin Costner made a really bad movie along this same line, not that he was a hitman but the whole revenge part - plot stunk, romance/sex parts were very steamy. Discuss........
Okay - but can they do it, first? Please? Cos Jenny does that really well. And every girl deserves at least one episode of cataclysmic sex before they perish. And from the coleslaw scene I'd say Agnes deseves it more than most.
No, no - what am I talking about! Kill of Agnes? Wash your mouth out Bob.
doh! Doherty, Robert v Ubbercherry
Gee, I thought you were a bit further along than this. But discussion is good... as long as you keep it professional and all.
Jenny, go ahead and crochet something while Bob continues simplifying the plot. You can always fix it later.
I'm hearing thunder again tonight and yet, surprisingly, the sky is clear.
bw
Bob, you are a member of the RWA now and that R doesn't stand for Revenge. Not that there's anything wrong with that...
*shoves two decades worth of cool military thrillers, spy novels and myseries where the love interest gets killed off under the bed. Nope, no revenge here no sireee Bob*
Angie
Kill Agnes and the wrath of the Cherrie, the Cherry Bombs and of course Jenny will fall on thy head!
Hmm. Good point Angie. Plenty of terrific books out there without a love interest.
Of course then Shane would have to banter with, um... the flamingos? The other hit man? Ah. The mother-in-law.
Well, it will be a challenge.
bw
CherrieS (meant the plural but when I'm laughing so hard I don't type so well...)
"DISCUSSING"
Right Jenny....
Don't forget The Frying Pan of Doom--it turns villains into poached eggs...
She wrote that He wrote: Where the hero always gets slammed. Has to pick himself, get going, and gets slammed again and go in a different direction.
This makes me think of that stupid arcade game they have in pizza places. I think it's called (sorry Tal!) Whack a Mole. Where the mol-- um, little creature pops up, you smack it on the head with a big rubber mallet, it disappears only to pop up again in another hole. And so on.
Not very dignified behavior for our hero, but if Bob thinks it will work...
bw
Someone needs to remind Bob that there's no "simple" in writing. Writing is hard.
good discussion, good tension. keeps both of you focussed and the story rolling along.
Bob in the e-mail said "See THATS why you kill the love interest off. Simplifies things. So if we have the seoond hitman kill Agnes then what we got is a revenge book which are really cool and simple to write." And I must comment on this.
When I first started writing for pulicaiton, about 2 and a half years ago and people would ask me what I wrote, I'd say Romance and smile wide. Guys all thought I was writing smut (okay, I like a good sex scene, but it's not smut) and some of my women friends would say, "well, I guess that would be kind of easy to write." Sometimes, even people I know who write other stuff look at me funny when I say I write Romance Novels, like it's less than writing or something.
So THANK YOU BOB! for pointing out that writing romance isn't a walk in the park and anyone could do it.
As far as your discussions go, remember that you did what was best for the book with DLD, so do it again. I know it's not easy, but I know you can do it.
Now to share - just got back from dinner at the club after DH's golf tournament. I won't tell you what I had for dinner because I don't want SDCB to get mad at me again. But I have to tell you that my DH is a very sweet guy. I know he's all supportive me with my writing, but he never seems to get really excited about it. He doesn't read it. Anyway, to make a long story short, when I got to the club, perfect strangers were coming up to me asking when they could buy my book. I'm almost fell over. My DH has been telling everyone, while playing golf, that I sold a book. He even explained all about e-books and what not. He also told people I had a website. Then to top it off, he had them bring me a little cake. You know, just when I want to wring the man's neck, he does something to make me fall in love with him all over again. Men.
Well, you could kill off the love interest, but then it would no longer be a romantic adventure.
All that media training and brand building wasted.
Unless you kill off the love interest in Act 1, and then ressurect him or her in Act 3, in which case you've jumped the shark and gone into paranormal romantic adventure.
I'm not sure I used the new catchphrase "jump the shark" the right way. I just wanted to say it. Perhaps we can call it jumping the gator. Or the flamingo.
eeyja: Eventually, even young jokers acquiesce.
I don't know...myself, I like that there damn romantic plot!!!
Bob...I know you can do YEC...I've read some of yours!!!
Arn't they great!!!
She and He!
tyhifjbe green
take your high "if" Jenny, Bob eventuate
Yeah. Simple plot. That will be a big seller. "Oh, look! A really straightforward plot! I'm so excited to be reading something where I can figure out what happens 3 pages in."
Not.
I would think it would be a major reversal for the tough macho hero bent on revenge to find out that the love interest he's so intent on avenging is still alive. Then Bob could have his *simple* plot (at least for a while), and we could have major whack-a-hero complete with YEC and YEX. Crusie-Mayer book four?
guzjj---Grumpy unctuous buZZards jump Jenny. How long did they hang around for, anyway?
those darn kids... so cute!
now quit fooling around and get back to work. you have a deadline.
OK, Bob, think about this. What if the first hitman only THINKS Agnes is killed by the second hitman? But Agnes was only bumped on the head and develops amnesia and becomes sweet instead of cranky. She makes dinner for the second hitman -- his favorite, deep-fried chicken and biscuits and (wait for it) COLESLAW, and Hitman #2 promptly dies of food poisoning, whereupon Hitman #1 learns that Agnes was only FAKING amnesia and that Agnes is the chosen-by-the-Russian-mafia angel of death after all. Knowing he's outclassed, Hitman #1 (is this Shane?) retires. His new role is to support Agnes while she cooks and fights crime.
Now there's a plot. Who needs a gun when you have a kitchen, some rank coleslaw, and a woman like Agnes? I mean, come on.
Wow lots of good stuff here. Jen-T: Big Aaawwww moment there with DH. But remember you have to tell us when we can buy it before you announce it to the country club. ;D
But I think you made a good point.
Bob, are you listening? If you want to go write SIMPLE revenge books, go on ahead. I would have thought a tough former SF guy like you would be up to the CHALLENGE of writing something as COMPLICATED as romance. But if its too much for you ...
NUMC: Now there's a plot. Done in by expired coleslaw. And I don't think its been done before either. Plus which Bob would get to bring back the Russian mob which should make him happy.
hogez: what they call sub sandwichez in Pennsylvania.
Or you could resurrect the V-L-N-S-P-W redemption Monk thing and employ expiration by exsanguination. Maybe throw in an excommunicaton.
As long as you're simplifying.
bw
bjpjfpq: bob's just playing, jenny figures pretty quickly
Actually I think Bob used this device in The Rock. The love interest died in like the first chapter. On with the rest of the book and in the last chapter she's resurrected. So the hero gets to save the world without YEC issues messing with his head and then at the end they lived HEA.
But Bob, all kidding aside we know you are up to the challenge. Its a growth experience. It'll be good for you. Stretching yourself professionally and all that. And Jenny's going to let you kill lots of people off this time, right? So, Bob, its all good. You can do this. We have faith.
Ahh. Now I understand. It's time for Bob to write a YEC/YEX scene in Agnes and instead he figures he'll just kill her. That Bob, such a charmer.
MCB: Geez. You thought they all lived HEA in The Rock? I thought that was one of the most grim, depressing, doesn't life just suck, we are evil self-destructive beings who probably don't deserve to live if we can't use our brains for something other than death and destruction, which we apparently can't, not even if we're tricked into it books I have read in a long time. Maybe ever.
Of course, it was well written, had compelling characters, great twists, lots of exciting action, original ideas, blah, blah -- all that stuff you'd expect from The GAM. Well, that one guy at the end did a pretty abrupt about face, considering he was such a grim paranoid government type. And it was poorly edited, but for all I know that's the new trend in publishing and certainly not Bob's fault.
But I did not put that book down thinking HEA. I was thinking, you know he's probably right. We're doomed and we deserve it. Took me a few days to get over it, too, Bob.
Try to lighten up just a bit in Agnes, ok? And it's alright, we've already told you we like your YEC/YEX scenes. Get over it.
bw
BCB: huh. I got the affirmative message from The Rock, same as MCB: We're in bad shape, but it's not too late to save us all if we just care about each other and pay attention to the implications of what we do.
It's 10 years old, the editing makes me cringe, but it was a really nice HEA. Sorry you got dismal out of it, though.
I'd actually prefer Agnes a lot darker then DLD, which I felt was a bit too light, considering the Bob part of the partnership. BOL, now that's dark.
I guess it was the cynical certainty that we are incapable of paying attention to the implications, or caring about them, that got me. I thought it was a pretty powerful message, just not very cheery.
And I agree that parts of DLD were too light and hope there is more darkness in Agnes. Just hope it stops a bit short of grim and hopeless.
BOL was dark, but it wasn't hopeless. Of course it had that ending for which I would NOT have forgiven him except that I knew he was working on Lost Girls. When is that due out?
bw
I know that the problem is that you have too many characters and instead of arcing them Bob you want to kill them off. That's just sad. Well, keep trying. The yec will come to you. I trust in you, Robert, to do the write thing.
Thanks for all your support cherrybombs. I have been going through my file of saved columns, "A Penny for your Thoughts" which I wrote , some as far back as 1980, and I have been editing and now I am going to put them on my blog. I have quite a few already done and I realized I have more to write. It is just as you have said. I feel compelled to do this.
cherry magic sheryl and I were talking this morning and I thanked her for turning me on to this blog and the community. I told her that I felt compelled to write now and she said she knew I would. This group has given me so much. Thank you.
red aduiepb
Ahhhh, Doherty uncovered intelligence encoding (a) "poor Bob".
SDCB: That is terrific! You're a talented writer and have a nice touch with words. I'm happy to hear you've decided to share that. Can't wait to see what you produce.
bw
You know there it is great when you can really like your own stuff (read writing) but I just went to my blog and re-read what I had posted today and laughed myself silly. I had such a fun time in the situation and the memories just make me LOL. If you need a good laugh go see "Miss Piggy".
red qdpvd
Quality Doherty provides various digressions.
scopedope - glad you're enjoying yourself.
mary stella - "jumping the shark" began as shorthand for the point at which a TV series starts going downhill. Comes from a "Happy Days" episode when Fonzie, on water skis, jumped over a shark.
Miss Piggy. LOL. Scope Dope, you are something else. I'm thinking those folks in NJ might be in for a surprise. ,-)
I sure hope your kids and grandkids appreciate the gift of history you're giving them.
bw
Thanks for the explanation of "jumping the shark" Ol' Biddy (goodness, that's hard to write, but how can I address you with more respect if that's how you sign yourself?)! I had never heard the expression, much less had any idea of its origin.
Agnes, by what I have gleaned from the posted bits, does NOT deserve to die. If anything, she should be the last woman standing. But I don't much care for revenge books, anyway - often the revengee should die, to make the world safe for YEC and HEAs, but it's not a very satisfying character arc for the revenger. Jayne Ann Krentz usually has the hero forego revenge at the last minute as a sign of having moved on and found something worth living for vs. killing for, but I don't think that's where Bob was aiming this one.
ervamld: edification receives validation and minimal legal dollars
SDCB: Loved your Miss Piggy story! Thank you for sharing.
As Biddy said its from the old Happy Days show, but "jumping the shark" now refers to anytime a tv show makes a big splash to try to recoup ratings. And its usually a sign the show is on its way out.
Okay, The Rock was indeed a grim reminder of humanity's dedication to destroying itself. But mostly I got pissed off at the aliens. Excuse me, but who are they to be making decisions about which life forms get to survive? Self-righteous prigs. If we've learned nothing else from our own environmental disasters, it should be that even the lowliest lifeforms have some purpose and you shouldn't mess with the circle of life *cue music*. And they hadn't bothered to tell us they'd buried these devices all over our planet so I don't think they were in a position to criticize anyway. I really wanted a sequel where the aliens are facing imminent doom and someone says "say, what about those human chaps? They're pretty inventive, maybe they can figure out how to save the universe." Huh.
SPOILER ALERT (probably should have said that before, sorry)
MCB: LOL! You remember that there were no aliens, right? Just time traveling deformed humans who made up the alien thing to frighten their ancestors into behaving themselves. And that was a big part of why I found it so depressing, that after the massive bomb explosion was averted they believed they couldn't tell anyone that it was a deception or they'd go right back to killing each other and blowing up the planet. Well, they told that man and woman who ended up in the desert with what's her name who swore them to secrecy, but I wasn't really convinced either of them had what it takes to DO anything about it.
So I thought that was depressing. But I had also just watched the evening news.
Though I agree the aliens (during the part where we were supposed to believe they WERE aliens) were a little arrogant about their superiority. Which was actually the thing that convinced me early on that they were human.
bw
BCB: Oh, right. See I just got SO WORKED UP about those danged aliens - it stuck. But yeah, you're right. But see there's the thing. Whether they kept it a secret or not didn't really matter. And it goes back to the Circle of Life thing really because if you start tampering with things you change them and you don't know that the change will necessarily be for the better, do you?
Okay I had a point there somewhere. Oh yeah. Not telling people the truth. It wouldn't change anything, really, would it? And I wonder if those future generation folks considered that it might have been the very thing they were preventing that ultimately has mankind evolving past that kind of thing. Did that make sense? Its like telling a child that the stove is hot. Until they touch it themselves, that doesn't have any significance. Then curiosity gets the better of them, they get burned and say "oh, yeah, bad idea." And aliens or future generations - makes no difference because there were only, relatively speaking, a handful of people involved. They learned something. But you know that still leaves the rest of the world to screw up the future.
And it occurred to me that Bob wrote a damned fine book if it still gets me worked up like this.
Nonono. [laughing] I meant it was depressing because I agreed with the decision that the deception was necessary. And because, human nature being what it is, we'll keep on touching the stove anyway. Meaning that, if someone doesn't figure out time travel pretty darn quick, we're all in big trouble.
Agree on the damned fine book part. Depressing as hell, but damned fine book.
bw
BCB said ... we'll keep on touching the stove anyway.
Exactly. Because we have to evolve past that part and its got to be a global thing, not just imparting lessons to a handful of people and hoping they can get the word across.
Look at the atom bomb. We set it off twice and it scared the beejeebers out of even the politicians. But guess what? People are still building the damn things even though everybody agrees they are a really bad thing.
Except of course for the people who don't believe it ever really happened. Read a book about that once a long long time ago. Wish I could remember title or author because it was good. Basically we dropped the bomb and something happened but they determined that it was actually a weird geophysical doodah and not the bomb which apparently didn't even work. But they figured out what DID happen and predicted when and where it would happen again and then when it did, took credit for dropping the second bomb.
Because I like 'what if' books. There was one involving Watergate too. Again my memory fails me. But the premise was that the plot was never uncovered and the folks in power were even nuttier than anyone knew. Pretty soon marshall law is declared and it gets ugly. But you've got your intrepid band of underground heroes (I've got a weakness for that) who undermine it all. It ended with a really great scene where the head guy of the military is in front of the Capitol Building (or the White House, possible. Details are fuzzy) and everyone expects that he'll end up taking over but he stands firm that there WILL be elections and the American people WILL elect their new leader. It was a 'truth, justice and the American way' moment which sounds cheesy in retrospect but worked in the book.
heather: i like it. Jenny, get on this.
scope dope: glad your doing more writing. i seem to be doing less (there's no time; i'm always here, posting) but on my kind-of-vacation i may be able to get some done when we are staying with my mom's friend.
haven't read The Rock yet (thanks for all those "warning: spoiler alert" posts; thanks, really. now i have NO expectations).
MCB said "Its like telling a child that the stove is hot. Until they touch it themselves, that doesn't have any significance. Then curiosity gets the better of them, they get burned and say "oh, yeah, bad idea.""
you know what, i think that is based off of how it is told to you. instead of, "don't touch that, it's hot", it should be "that's really hot. you can get burned and that really hurts. see that scar on my hand? that's from when i touched one. but you can try it if you want"
it's saying something is forbidden that gets us going. we can believe something (hey, it boils water, and it's fire, it probably does hurt since all my life people have said to be careful around it), but when they say "don't", your going to. THAT'S human nature: wanting the forbidden, being a "rebel".
on the other hand, being what human nature is, we will keep touching the stove because we DON'T learn from our experiences. or we think it won't hurt us again because it's ME. it's the ego of humans that have us keep touching that hot stove and burning our hands.
MCB: there's a lot of "what if" books based off of "what if the Nazi's won". and for the "Except of course for the people who don't believe it ever really happened" that always scares me. the oens who don' believe the Holocaust happened, or that slavery was THAT bad, or your example of the bombs, or whatever. that ability of denial is amazingly scary to me.
Naked Under My Clothes has coleslaw with Russian (mob) dressing? Now there's an opportunity for pun-ishment!
mcb wrote: I really wanted a sequel where the aliens are facing imminent doom and someone says "say, what about those human chaps? They're pretty inventive, maybe they can figure out how to save the universe." Huh.
It's already been done. Check out WINE OF THE DREAMERS by John D. MacDonald (1968).
OH wrote: THAT'S human nature: wanting the forbidden, being a "rebel"
That's why I think the best way to keep teenagers from having sex would be to require it in the schools.
rdjyknt -- Robert Doherty, Jenny's YEC keeps needling Talpianna.
tal: you may have a point about that sex thing.
i see Jenny took care of Bob. again. this is fun. i'm gonna miss this for the next week.
naked under my clothes said...
Agnes was only bumped on the head and develops amnesia and becomes sweet instead of cranky. She makes dinner for the second hitman -- his favorite, deep-fried chicken and biscuits and (wait for it) COLESLAW, and Hitman #2 promptly dies of food poisoning,
Yeah! Because, because with the amnesia, she forgot the coleslaw had been in the car for a month. Yeah. Only, considering I'm reading backwards and know that Bob not only wants to kill Agnes off, but also wants Shane to have sex with her underage nun sister, well, Shane should be the one getting the coleslaw. Or is that who you meant.
I'd be pouting because nobody noticed I was gone, but I've been in enough verifications to make me feel all warm and fuzzy.
My sympathies to you Agtigress. I'm taking care of an elderly parent, too. We've been doing the stomach flu here, and she's too far gone mentally to remember that she's had the stomach flu. Without locking her in a closet or tying her to the bed, I'm having a terrible time keeping her from drinking water, which is the worst thing you can do for this flu. It's very hard.
pbduy (red)
That's the music school in Baltimore, isn't it?
zaza: excuse me, i noticed you were gone. and you're always in our thoughts, esp with z's in the verifications. hope your mom is doing better. same with you Agtigress
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