Warning: Some Violence and Much Strong Language.HE WROTE: It’s a Marathon
Written on Wednesday:
Writing a novel is like running a marathon. I used to run those things back when I was younger. Actually ran Boston a couple of times. Anyway, you’re not going to finish a novel in a day. Or a couple of days. It’s a long haul.
The key is to work at it all the time. You work in increments. A little bit at a time, all the time, gets you there.
One of the questions that constantly comes up is “what is your work day like as a writer?” There are some writers who follow rigid schedules. X number of pages every day. I don’t do that, but I guess I do follow a pretty rigid schedule of working pretty much every day. I’m thinking in November of taking maybe a day or two off if AGNES is in with no major rewrites required, CHASING is on the market, or even better sold, and nothing else unexpected comes up. But something always comes up. Right now on my desk I have the notes for Agnes (two spreadsheets: the story grid and a week calendar along with numerous emails); a printout of CHASING THE DEAD where I just did a rewrite of a couple of key scenes today to tighten down the plot and printed those scenes out; and the galleys for a book coming out next year that I have to get back soon to the publisher (I hate reading galleys). On Jenny’s own blog, she mentions all the books she’s working on. It starts to pile up after a while. Not that we’re complaining. We love what we do.
So I started working on Agnes at 7:30 this morning and it’s 7:30 in the evening now. In between I did go for a bike ride. But other than that, I’ve been at my desk pretty much the entire time. Nibbling away. Well, ok, I went over and laid down for about a half hour trying to figure out who they would suspect was sending the first hit man to whack Agnes. Not who was actually sending the hit man, mind you, but who they (Shane and Joey the Gent and Carpenter) would think was sending the hit man. That’s when you really start getting headaches, when you have to get into the mind of your characters and figure out what they’re thinking and feeling.
Written on Friday-- aka Today:
I watched the first two episodes of Season One: DEADWOOD last night, because I’d heard it was a good series and I watched some of a current season episode last week and I was sufficiently intrigued and confused that I knew I had to start at the beginning. Buffy it aint. I told Jenny she wouldn’t like it. I just went and rented episodes Three through Seven for my weekend entertainment in between writing Agnes. I knew Deadwood was going to be wicked from the opening scene when the sheriff hangs the man and helps him die by grabbing his legs and pulling down on them to help break his neck. Yep. Larry McMurtry would write something like that. Which reminds me of MAN ON FIRE with Denzel Washington which I watched again the other night, which is sort of a movie for ex-SF guys, like Roland the Headless Thompson Gunner by Warren Zevon was our song. I love the scene where Christopher Walken is explaining Creasy (Denzel) and he says: “A man can be an artist... in anything, food, whatever. It depends on how good he is at it. Creasey's art is death. He's about to paint his masterpiece.” And then Creasy goes out and does it. Or one of his targets begs for a last wish and he answers: “I wish you had more time.” And kills him. Ok. See, that gets me in the mood to write Shane meeting the infamous Tootaloo brothers in Savannah trying to find out who put the contract out on Agnes. Except maybe the contract isn’t on Agnes. Maybe it’s on Shane. Who knows? Where, Moot, by the way, makes a cameo appearance.
So where was I?
Lisa: What are you gonna do?
Creasy: What I do best. I’m gonna kill ‘em. Anyone who involved. Anybody who profited from it. Anybody who opens their eyes at me.
So. I’ve blogged. Back to the book.
168 Comments:
Yeah, that's Bob. Our egg.
Hi Bob. Thank you for the blog.
My Dad really likes Deadwood. Guess its a guy thing. He's taping the series, I think. I think its all the episodes. I know he watches it and tapes a lot on DVD mostly. So if you are looking for back episodes, let me know. I'll check with Dad.
Is the book coming out next year LOST GIRLS? Cool. Also looking forward to Chasing. Feel like we've got a vested interest in that one.
The Tootaloo Brothers. See that scene is already funny and I haven't read it yet.
A Moot cameo? Waaaay cool. A GF borrowed my copy of DLD and loved it, has since moved on to some of Jenny's. Told her you guys were working on the new one and she asked after Moot.
Yay, Moot!
"Increments" is about all the time I get when it comes to writing lately, what with this so-called "real" job of mine and all, but keep plodding along I shall.
Oh, and Hi Bob!
Bob - and I thought what went on inside my head was weird. Although I know what you mean about getting inside your people's head, and the headache it creates.
Bob - What kind of chair do you have? You see, I need a new one because my butt feels like my head these days, (CB's don't go there!). Anyway, since you were in the chair for almost 12 hours yesterday, except for a bike ride and a half hour rest, your chair must be very comfortable. Mine, not so much.
Deadwood is good, although I've been known to fall asleep during it. DH doesn't understand why books keep me awake and TV puts me to sleep. MAN ON FIRE is my favorite Denzel movie. That one actually kept my attention and i didn't even snooze, not once.
I hope moot is nice to the Flamingo.
Welcome, Bob's blog.
A cameo by Moot...great!
Looking forward to this book!
And the others...currently reading Area 51-Nosferatu.
In the first series of "Deadwood" number 2 Son and friends were extras.
Good series.
hfantz red
high frequencies (mean) ANTZ
we are plagued with them
amc wrote: Yeah, that's Bob. Our egg.
Our surly, violence prone egg.
See, he needed the CB's to provoke him into surliness so he could channel some of that rage into Shane doing something other than sitting around complaining.
[Note to self: keep eyes closed around Bob.]
Thanks for posting, Bob. You know, you're supposed to feel complimented when folks miss you. Especially CB's, who have higher than usual standards and are very discerning about whom they will pester. To death.
bw
BCB - "Note to self: keep your eyes closed around Bob." ARE YOU NUTS! I think it's best to keep your eyes wide open around that man! Adorable as he is.
"Have higer than usual standards" um, and you hang around me? Geez, your standards are slipping there BCB - oh, I just dished myself didn't I. Yeah, well I'm going to hell in handbasket anyway. Yep, I am. Or maybe I'm already there. Had to pull children apart again this morning. This time they were fighting over a golf ball! Can you believe that. I mean really, we have like 500 of them around the house! Will this fighting ever end?
Oh, and I got a phone call from my husband, driving home from NH with daughter who is HURT! again. Seems she got slammed into the boards and hurt her shoulder and needs an X-ray. they are driving all the way home though before we take her to the hospital (where doctor friend works) Who gave my kids permission to play this sport anyway.
And just so you know - the only time my daughter has gotten hurt in hockey is when she plays girls - not once on the boys team. Oh, and my son, broke his wrist subbing on his sister's team during a scrimmage. The other coaches said it was fine, since he's two years younger and he promised to be nice. Ha! The girls should've promised to be nice and he couldn't even hit back because his mother would have flattened him. He came off the ice, cursing that girls didn't play fair! Yep, they don't.
Sigh, it never ends in this house. Dang, and I thought we'd be going to the lake to visit jaws tonight.
So you posted. Good on ya mate. About bloody time, too!
Hello all from the land downunder.
Met DUG last night. She's great. She was in costume, I was in a half a costume ... no I did not lose it dancing on the table. *grin* That's J-T who does that stuff. I mean I did a regular dress, threw on some long pearl headress and a boa. You won't see photos as neither Dug nor I had a camera. Thank goodness.
Conference is going well, got to talk with Debbie Macomber and her agent, Paula Eykelhof last night. Both lovely ladies. The Aussies have to be the friendliest people in the world. I love this conference, I swear there must be jealousy somewhere but I don't see it or hear it. Everyone just welcomes you with open arms, shares info, and even the multi-pubbed don't take themselves so seriously. It's verrrrry refreshing.And everyone mixes at the same parties none of that B.S. that goes on in the States where everyone breaks into their private parties and select groups and we newbie writers get to interact only with other newbies.
BOB, your Novel Writers Toolkit book was for sale in the bookfair. I encouraged several people to purchase it. *grin* NO COPIES of Don't Look Down. I was surprised by this. It would have been a great opp to get your book out there pre coming over for National next year. Oh well.
The J&B blog is pretty popular with Aussies though and there are many Aussie lurkers. I know, I've spoken to them.You guys will be so welcomed next year, you'll have a great time.
Got to go take a class.
rg
RG: I'm glad you're having such a good time! And that's the key to good costumes - do it all with accessories, so that you don't have to actually sew or buy a single-use item.
rxgmrnm: like an oxymoron, only worse
Working in 'increments' is generally far better than working in 'excrement.'
Love DEADWOOD. Thought my hair would curl from ALL of the swearing, but the thing plays like some Greek tragedy and the characters, FAB.
Now I must learn what a story grid is. Visual aid needed -- in oh so many ways.
As always, thanks Bob. Carry on.
Good for you Bob you blogged and you are working. That's great. Thanks for a look into your life. When I write a murder mystery I am using you as my protagonist. You seem to love all that blood and guts stuff. /.D
I too have been plodding away. I don't seem to get a lot done, although I did do a lot of editing last night, not much writing.
rg I love Love love Debbie Macomber. If you get a chance to thank her for me please do so. I love her books. I have to admit I haven't read any lately but I read all that was available here before. Glad you are enjoying yourself. BUT where are my pictures? I want to see downundergal too. I wanted to see you all dolled up like...who? Have fun!
blue mqemj
Maybe quit eating M&Ms Jenny. Horrid thought, not eat chocolate?
he blogged. *wipes tear from her eye* that's our egg. :)
what's a galley?
my dad does translations for my mom when they watch Deadwood. i liked the Man on Fire movie. i watch how films are filmed also, and i like how they did the writing when he spoke. very cool.
rg: sounds awesome!
Aussie lurkers, come out, come out, where ever you are. (well, we know your in aussie land, so never mind). but come say hello. we won't bite. well, some of us will, but in a very nice way. :)
Galley's are like the author's final chance at their ms before it goes to the printer. IOW, you better not be wanting to make numerous or big changes at that state of the game unless you've got a hugely good reason. I don't know about now, but they used to send them out on big, long strips of paper, so they were a mess to deal with. Still true, Bob? Or anyone else who knows, of course.
xpfardo (green)
Xavier protested five angry red devils outright.
Louis, they were extras?? Cool!
RG - I adore Debbie Macomber. Do tell her the CB's said hey and thanks for the great reads. Jenny and Bob won't be jealous.
Bob - See to me that would be the hardest part of writing for a living - treating it like a job. I don't know that I could ever be my own boss. I'd be too apt to procrastinate. I'm discplined at my job, but then I have to be.
Bob, I've been reading back over some of the bits and pieces you and Jenny of doled out on Shane and the Food Critic, and I keep thinking, Hot Dang this book is going to be good!
Galleys...OH
unbound printed sheets of a book.
Or the Pirate's kitchen on his ship.
Down under luckers...Come Out, Come Out, wherever you are...you will be very welcome.
Give us the Downunder viewpoint.
cnmzfq red
Crusie needs much zip for quotas
well blogger stricks again
eghfhs blue
every good hand feels her skin
never thought I'd see the day I'd be chastising Louis and Orangehands in the same sentence, but here it goes. Quit pestering the Aussies. They're busy. They have a national conference going on right now. The Conference is over on the 13th (I'm assuming that's Celsius so for those of us still using standard that would be 55, not that I remember that on my calendar, but whatever) Anyway, back to the chastising. Pick on them in a few days. Pick on them really hard. Make the shy ones look like something out of Hitchcock's The Birds if they don't speak up. But, leave them alone right now.
And there's SDCB. Telling us she has an abcess tooth that needs to be pulled so no one asks her about the missing tooth when some of you see her in NJ.
I'm telling you, Scope Dope, one of these days the cops are going to stop being so nice because you're older and are going to throw you in the pokey with all your other beer-brawling friends. Don't call me for bail.
You think I'm joking, but I've MET HER. I know what she's really like. ;)
CC: LOL! I'm going to practice my singing, a la the Munchkins: "Come out come out whereeeeever you are..." [Bob, count your blessings I've spared you from that.]
But how will we know when we've entrapp-- geez, almost gave it away, when we've coerc--, not better, um, when we've warmly welcomed ALL of them? Good thing none of them understand American English, bless their hearts. C'mon you Aussies, gear up for after conference. We've all been cast off by Mother England, so we have lots in common. Well, you all were criminals and we all were mere ruffians and upstarts and traitors and... never mind. We have lots in common, talk to us. If we find any differences, we'll celebrate them. No wucking furries.
RG: Glad to hear you're having such a good time, but really, you need to stop telling lies about which one of us was dancing on the tables in Atlanta. Nor did JenT remove any clothing -- not in public anyway. She hardly wore any to begin with and had blessed little to spare for removal. Of course, if I had a bod like that, I wouldn't hardly wear any either.
bw
tlltlpp: too little too late, people
MCB wrote: I'm discplined at my job, but then I have to be.
Well, yes. Same goes.
You MIGHT try applying a bit of that discipline to your skills as a passenger and traveling companion. Just saying.
bw
hofvt: high occupancy lane for MCB, who has become quite the favorite
Please, PLEASE, PLEASE tell me Moot eats Princess!
lsczf -- Let ScopeDope choose Zaza's furs.
bcb I think you and mcb should collaborate and write down your trirp to Canada story and market it. It is funny.I told her that too. You could be another bob and jenny /,D
Okay glamour geek I am putting a contract out on you. you weren't supposed to tell them that. Now they all know I am the next fugitive on American's Most Wanted. But I have put on a fat suit since you saw me so no one will recognize me. Ha Ha Ha.
Back to work
green bwwsnj
Bob worries writer's (who're) saying nothing, Jenny.
CC....ooops!
Downunders...ignore me for a few more days ....
Then pay attention!
Speak up!
Robina...keep reporting...eagerly read.
hwmve green
how would many volunteer evenings
Aussies: okay. i will leave you alone. for a few days. someone tell me when the conference is over so i can start annoying aussie lurkers again. (i know, i know, it's the 13th, which is apparently 55, but i won't remember that. my mind is going.)
i meant welcoming them, not annoying them. yeah, that's right. welcoming.
thanks for the galley explanation.
hey, it's only the aussie lurkers i have to stop annoying, right?
ok, rest of the world lurkers, get your butts out here. we need something to entertain us while J&B write and don't blog. "come out, little darlings, i have chocolate"
Yes, Orangehands. You only have to leave the Aussies alone. You may bug the rest of the world.
Just played with the bathroom floor. It's messy. I'm starting to wonder why I got rid of my apartment. Off to make another mess.
ewsokkt- the sound made by a nail as it is pulled out of the floor.
CC: what exactly are you doing to that floor?
CONGRATULATIONS THERESA IN PGH!!!! (in case you missed the other ones)
RG - Glad you are having fun downunder! Even glader you have popped in here to say hello - but, lets leave the dancing on table tops out of it. I only do that on special occasions and someone borrowed my pole when I went to nationals and I haven't seen it since. Those dang partiers, geez.
BCB - Now I'm blushing. My bod ain't all that great, trust me, I've seen me naked, not a pretty sight. And, for the record, I did wear clothing at nationals, and was all covered up, well excpet for maybe Wednesday, okay, that outfit was a little, well, reveling. But if you pop over to my blog, there is a picture of me from nationals on Thursday at the Pro Retreat and you will see, I was fully clothed, holy long sleeved shirt and all!
SDCB - um, I think the eye patch will give you away!
Now on the the daughter thing. After some debate, I took my daughter to the ER, again. This time for a problem with her shoulder as I explained earlier. Poor kid, she has a pulled ACL. I have to take her to a specialist next week for follow up, but basically she's out for the next two to four weeks. She's devistated. She tried so hard to hide the pain, but she can't raise her arm up. Thank goodness nothing is broken, and it's not her head, again, but geez, the poor kid can't catch a break. She had a very important try-out for an elite team on Monday and now she won't be able to go. We have her written recommendation, but it's likely they won't take her if she doesn't skate. More girls trying out, than spots available.
But mom is glad to have her back.
Sleep well CB's, and Bob and Jenny.
Tal - Thanks for the chair info. I'm checking into it in the morning. I'm trying to talk my DH into him getting a new chair, because i like his.
Good night.
JenT wrote: well excpet for maybe Wednesday, okay, that outfit was a little, well, reveling
Yep, lots of revelry going on that night.
SDCB wrote: bcb I think you and mcb should collaborate and write down your trip to Canada story and market it. It is funny.I told her that too. You could be another bob and jenny
Geez. First of all, we already wrote it. Here. Anyone demented enough to want to read it, already has. Second, are you crazy? Are you trying to get us both killed? Another B&J?! Right. Scope Dope, you are just adorable. [grin]
Wishing you all a good night's sleep.
bw
rwfmcrq: Romance Writers of FMCRQ (one of the USSR spin offs)
JJ: for your DD, poor baby. ((hugs))
ok, see you sunday (hanging out with friends all sat, which means most of the night too, and not sure i'll have time to post tomorrow morning). so, bye. try not to do anything...umm...i'm trying to think of a sane person on this blog that you can follow their lead on but nothings coming.
catplypb: cat platypus. a new animal. tastes like chicken. (hey, better than my first reaction, cat playboy)
BCB - leave me alone. My nails are long, the keyboard small, I can't spell and I'm dyslexic! Geez, why must you always pick on me!
djztxxe - dribble jelly, zulu time, xaiver? xaiver! eugenics.
Someone's got to do it.
bw
BCB - yeah, well, it's bad enough I get it at home. Geez.
xejrclkd - x-ray eggs, jerked recklessly caring little kids down.
OH - don't party too much!
rttyko - umm, don't know.
Tal,
I was catching up with previous comments and saw your picture links. The one of the kitten reminded me of the time I was working with Bob's kitten on a SF operation... well take a look.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/75144372@N00/213155040/
Oops!
Which is identical to the first link that I couldn't see until you fixed it. You were there, huh?
Talpianna: LMAO at the idea of moot eating Princess. I vote she then be rushed to a vet because of silicone poisioning :-)
So happy to see Bob blog. His blogs are always sorta surreal and zen. Like he understands the voices that are sent by the Mothership.
I also would like to see Aussie posts. Ever since I read Bill Bryson's travel book "In a Sunburnned Country" I have wanted to go there. Had a friend go for the Transplant Olympics (She had a lung transplant and won a medal -- all cheer here) and she raved how it was the absolute most friendly place on the earth bar none. The closest I've come to Australia is the fact my husband spends a good bit of time down under :0)
Let me know if my crude humor makes anyone faint or dizzy. I know some of you are delicate flowers.
Jen-T: I really think I should get my little girl Tweety Bird into Hockey one day. She seems potentially descructive. I like that. I'll rename her Bobette.
JenT mistakenly wrote: BCB - yeah, well, it's bad enough I get it at home. Geez.
Nonono, what's bad is when you can't get it at home. Oh. You meant grief?
You know I love you. Well, I'm off to the races. Might accomplish everything early today, as it is COOLER here and that means I can move a bit faster without risking heat stroke, so I'll talk to you all later.
RSS: I'm supposed to breathe? That would result in increased blood flow and oxygen might get to my brain and those two remaining cells might kick in and I might have a coherent thought and, geez... what was I saying? Oh yeah, I might come to a realization and decide to hell with it. And THEN who would make dinner?
Hope you all do something productive today, however you define it. [Ex: A nap can be productive, if what you're hoping to produce is a calm, relaxed, well-rested feeling. So I've heard.]
bryan: I love those kittens.
bw
beebsu: nickname of that really perky girl in HS
Hey.Okay so I really did party tonight. Sat with DUG and her hubby Mark and a nice group of their friends. Drank just a little too much wine (DUG's fault). Mark's a great guy and I really get his humor. Short on words, cuts to the chase. I told him he was my shared date because as usual I was solo. *sigh* You guys have to help me find a nice bloke. Someone about 50-60. Doesn't have to be wealthy and I don't like pretty boys, nice rugged good looks, great sense of humor, likes dogs, walks on the beach and lots of s ... what were we talking about?
Oh yeah, awards dinners. Anyway Mark's and my joint version of what the awards dinner should have been like (it was very elegant) a keg of beer a few buckets of shrimp a pig on a spit and a few rolls of paper towels (for napkins, silly.)
Anyway everyone was dressed to the nines. DUG had a gorgeous turquoise necklace and earrings on (plus a dress, *grin*) She did an amazing job organising this event. It really was classy. I got to meet several gals I've communicated with and two ladies who have critique groups with women in my RWA chapter in L.A.
But the very best was DUG. I feel like I've known her forever.
She asked me to say she's still inundated with stuff for the conference and then tomorrow evening will pack to take a much needed holiday in Victoria. She said to say hi from her and that she's having severe blog withdrawal symptoms and probably won't get back to make comments for at least a week, but that she misses you all.
Conference is over for me. Jenny would be so proud of me. I took a collage class and made a fab collage of my current book. They put it up on a notice board with a couple of others and it was fun to hear peoples comments without them knowing it was mine.
I leave early in the a.m. for Cairns and points north. I'm researching my tropical adventure book. Most likely won't find internet access so it might be a while before you hear from me. Hope I survive the rainforest. And the snakes. And the spiders. And the crazy family ...
rg
BCB - You know, you all think my mind is always in the gutter, but I think BCB takes the cake on that one! Geez.
RG - well, I don't think there are sharks where you are going, so you're safe. Okay, well you're on your own with the crazy family.
Good luck finding that Bloke. I'm sure there is one out there, willing, ready and waiting for one hot tomalli such as you to come rescue him.
Dear Bob, Thank you so much for blogging. Your insight into your day and the book were very welcome. I have no idea what Deadwood is, I'll have to ask my boys.
Okay, enough nice. Glad you are working both of you because we want the books, all of them because we've read everything else you've written and it's an addiction. Snapping the whip here.
Blast, we aren't over 100 yet are we. Oh, well. They are working not reading. I hope.
JenT: BF (before fire) I bought a new computer chair because the old one was torn, scuzzy and I was ashamed of it. (Cats, dogs, and three boys: use your imagination) I hated the new one. It hurt my back, my butt, my shoulders, every part of my body so I gave it to DS and took back the old one. I strongly suggest carrying your laptop into the store, pulling the chair up to a desk and working for a couple of hours to check it out. Yeah, I realize the salespeople might get snarky but you can handle that.
So sorry your DD is hurt again. I hope she heals quickly.
The boys will stop fighting in a couple of years when they gang up to complain about you, argue with you, cuss at you under their breath. At least that what's mine did. Our house is so much fun. DS15 did crack up when I heard his mumbled curses and said "Right back at ya"
DH and two older sons will be out of the way for the rest of the day so I'm going to talk DS11 into walking with me and then I'm going to work. I don't think I'll acheive Bob's twelve hours but it's an inspiration. Hear that Bob.
It's gorgeous here today.
RG: Thanks for the update. The Aussie National sounds like a lot of fun.
I plan to join in encouraging (not harassing we'd never harass. Stop snickering people) the Aussie lurkers to stop lurking after the 13th or 55th. Until then, hi.
red cddrht: can't diddle dohingies right haven't time
Note to self. Don't write so much. Blogger doesn't like it.
zzuqdwb red: 'zats zero ubiquitous quadrangles dangling with Bob
I'm in a very strange mood this morning
karathered: Love your humor. ROTFL. Thank you.
RG: Hope the snakes, spiders and family don't consume you and that you find many Blokes so that you can pick and choose.
green inqfzwe: Bloggers telling me to get off my derriere and do sometning else
inquisitive fuzzy werewolves Sticking my tongue out at Blogger here
I loved Man on Fire :) I think it's one of Denzel's best.
RG said..."there are many Aussie lurkers. I know, I've spoken to them.You guys will be so welcomed next year, you'll have a great time."
Bob and Jenny are coming to Australia??? When??? Where???
BCB: LOL
(red) dgaptkr: Daggy girls always pitch their knickers rashly.
rs ... I'm very happy I made you ROTFL. I live to make people ROTFL. It's what I do.
Don't worry about the three boys. Over time, with the right enzymes and a good lab, teenagers become human beings.
My mom was sitting (well, slaving for us) at breakfast one moring when I am my two younger brothers were all in our teens, listing to us bicker and quarrel. Finally, she slammed her orange juice on the table and announced "THIS is why some animals eat their young". My mom. We fear her.
My friend T has a teenager just ready to head off to college. One day he was pestering her while she was trying to work (of course) and she grabbed a pen and snarled "Don't make me cut you, bitch" which is very popular to say in Dallas high schools apparently. Her son laughed til he cried, but then left her in peace.
rg -- may you find yourself up to your lips in hottie blokes. Surely at least one of them will be worth keeping. If not, men are like a box of chocolats ... at least some of them are going to be full of that nasty orange nuget (sp?). But some will be very, very tasty. May all your blokes be good ones!
Warning: random thought
You know how Jenny is annoyed by TDTL (To Dumb To Live) heroines (aren't we all?) ... I think we should start a category called DNP, which will mean Dumber 'n Princess. Now watch Bob give her an arc and character development, just to step on my punch line damn him.
I had natural childbirth. Green Berets with killer pinkies scare me not.
erica Just Jenny is going to Australia next year. She was invited Bob wasn't and I think his nose is just a little out of joint because of it.
jen-t can't DD still skate Monday and try out that way. I know she probably can't hold the stick but her skating ability might count for something. Poor Disaster Lady can't catch a break can she? Is she related to cherry magic sheryl? Disaster Lady is what we used to call her. It's from Erma Bombeck's book, "Just Wait Till You have Children of Your Own".
green fclpnks
For Crusie, literary people need killer sharks. (like snarky agents) /,D
kyrathered - who said princess was stupid? Please people, I'm a princess, and I'm not stupid. No, really, I'm not! Stop laughing.
SDCB - Doc said no skating for fear she'd fall on the shoulder because her balance would be off because she's required to keep dang arm in a sling. We both pleaded with him, but he said no. And, well, we don't want to cause anything like permanent damage or something. Since you and are cosmically related somehow, I suppose our daughters would be too. I must admit, one of my other knicknames was Crash. I got that one from the HS downhill ski team coach because it was rare that I'd make it through the GS run without a major crash. My times during practice were great, and I'd be fine, but when it came to the races, well, I'd lose control and down I'd go. I've broke like 5 bones, had three knee surgeries, a couple of torn ligiments and one concussion. Gee, do you think my daughter takes after me?
I am interested in Bob's statement that he doesn't like reading galleys. I haven't seen a proper, traditional galley proof - the long, long sheets, which were, indeed, a pain to handle - for years, and thought they went out as computer-setting started to take over from conventional letterpress. In my experience, these days even the very first proofs are on standard-size pages (A4 in Europe, fairly close to US Letter size), though not necessarily the size of the final printed page, of course.
Anyone able to cast light on this?
Now my news. I entered a contest for unpubs and pubs with an entry for a manuscript that I'm still not sure off. Bob critiqued it and I made some changes to it based on his some of his thoughts. Thanks Bob, you are an excellent teacher. Anyway, got I call that it's a finalist the contest! yeah me.
So there, leave all the little Princess's of the world alone! We are not aligator food and if one of you brings up either shark food or squirrel food, I'll find you!
menchy - men can help, yep.
The only galley I've seen is the one on a sailboat when my job during races was the "galley wench". My book doesn't come out until June, and it's an ebook, so I have no idea.
I just recieved galley pages for someone else's book that I'll be reviewing. It's printed on 8.5x11 paper, formatted as the page will appear in book form, with markings where the pages would be cut.
This is the only galley I've ever seen, so it's not like I'm an expert or anything.
JT: Congratulations on being a finalist! WOOHOO! Cherrybombs rock!
So sorry about your daughter. Poor baby. It's hard to be disappointed like that for something you were anticipating so much. But her long-term health really is much more important. Like being able to use her arm when she's 18.
Once the pagination has been set, I would call the proof a page-proof: it may still be an early or a final proof, since theoretically there is no limit to the number of proofs. If one is publishing a work with a lot of illustrations, there are separate picture-proofs before they are integrated, and the first integrated page-proofs may have blanks where the figures will be placed.
The traditional galleys were printed on paper that was, if I remember rightly, generally at least the size of two foolscap sheets: our foolscap paper was 8" x 13", so a galley sheet was over 2 feet long. One of the points about these letterpress-set galleys was that at that first proof stage, it was still possible to insert or delete material, because the pagination had not yet been set. This consideration is no longer an issue with computer-setting, since a page does not consist of a portion of a fixed forme or signature any more. The whole process is more flexible.
Sorry, this is all a bit technical. I was just wondering (a) what it is that Bob especially dislikes about galleys and (b) whether it could conceivably be what everyone always used to hate about galleys, namely the fact that they were physically awkward to handle. I don't think it can be that, since I don't believe that the endless galley sheets exist any more.
I always find that proof-reading my own work is difficult, especially if I've already been over it ad nauseum, because I'm not going to find the mistakes because I'm no longer really SEEING what I'm reading, I'm seeing what I expect to find there. Perhaps that's why it's annoying. You really need to use a lot of energy to focus on something with which you are already all too familiar.
Glamour-geek said: I always find that proof-reading my own work is difficult...
Hear, hear! After all, you know what you meant to say, and it is all too easy to correct it unconsciously somewhere between the eye and the brain.
This is why it is so vital for people other than the writer to proof-read at each stage - professional editors and, preferably, also kind friends and colleagues of the author. Even after all that, the gremlins will get in and insert a mistake that just wasn't there before...
:-)
Congratulations, Jen T!
Theresa in Pgh
Persoanally, I like to trick my brain, which sadly is easy to do, like with Monovision. When I edit my own work, I make sure I take a break from it, work on something else for a bit, then come back to it. I'll change the font, single space it, print it out. I even once printed a manuscript in landscape. It's amazing what you might pick up when you change "perspective". Packing up and heading to the lake. Talk tonight when I go to visit Jaws.
GG and Teresa - Thanks! :)
Jen-T: No, not Dumber n' a princess ... it's just dumber 'n THAT princess. I've got a tiara of my very own (not making that up) even if I think of myself as a Queen, not a Princess. A Queen is a princess who has accessed her inner bitch. I feed mine cookies.
And the scene *if I remember correctly* did indicate a lack of savy in her little head. But I am now waiting for Bob to make her the real hitman. Because I made mock of Poor Princess.
Sorry your little one is hurt. Sounds like she's a rip tho. I've got a wee rip myself. Nice to know what I have to look forward to :0)
Crap, I meant to say ... Congratulations Jen-T. I don't know your pen name so please share so I can find you when you get published. You may already be. I am fairly clueless. But many many congratulations on you manuscript getting shortlisted.
That's fantastic JenT. Whoo Hoo.
Kyrathered: I described the difference between Princess and Queen as "just as demanding, but less frivolous" to someone who asked.
On the "I love this planet" list: I went to the farmers' market this morning and the smell of the rotisserie chickens (yummmmmmm) and the knowledge that I had no protein for lunch at home compelled me to buy a half. I couldn't place the accents of the men at the stand, so I asked where they were from. They are Turkish, from Russia. Have also lived in Austria, Switzerland, etc. And are now in California. Hurrah for means of transportation and the ability to meet people from different places!
Including our lovely and multi-continental tribe here.
ekewqu: a type of kayak used by a branch of the Inuit people.
I don't think I added my congrats to JenT, distracted as I was by the thought of galley-proofs. So, congratulations, JenT. :-D
I have the impression that there are quite a few already-published, about-to-be-published and every-expectation-of-being-published-some-day-soon writers in this community.
;-)
Many congratulations, Jen-T, and I'm sorry about your DD. Maybe the two of you can put your heads together to come up with a consolation activity - something she wouldn't have been able to do if she'd made the team, that you'll both have time for if she doesn't. I'm not sure what would appeal - girly stuff, such as manicures or shopping (hmm, not your favorite, I know), or trips to zoos and museums or films. Or maybe she'd enjoy helping you with the little kids' classes.
xqzegar: a fabulous, long-nosed fish
Congratulations... JenT
Keep your DD busy and out of mischief
vlckb red
very likely Crusie kicks butt
Yup, jen-t cosmically related you and me. You were "Crash"? I was, and am, "Klutz".
Must share with you. Sarah, the non-stop talking, singing granddaughter (4yo) is here. She came in with a cherry bag I had ordered for CMS and said, "I know this is cherries because you are Scooped Up Cherry Bum." ROTFLMAO See why she is my next Kachook story? /,D
red njxgm
No Jenny, Xavier gets Mayer.
Scooped Up,
How goes the writing. I had a fairly successful day yesterday. Could have had more but self-edited... check my blog for details. I don't have a good word count since I haven't typed anything but I think I'm in the range of 7,500.
htgpl - Her tiara gets pretty lopsided.
P,S. cherry magic sheryl is the greatest daughter/aunt in the world. In spite of the fact that she is leaving at 3:30 a.m. to go to Watkins Glen and she has worked all day at the library and she will not get any rest any earlier than 11 pm., phew, she is taking her dog Ky and Miss Muffet, aka Sarah, on a VERY long walk to wear them both out. The dog and Sarah will be staying here in town. I just love my perfect daughter, bcb. /,D
DH said to me today as Sarah was singing in the back seat of the van, "Do you remember when this child could not or would not talk, just point her finger and grunt to get what she wanted, and everyone was worried that she might have a problem. I said then that once she started we wouldn't be able to shut her up. Do you remember that? Well...." Men can be so snarky, can't they? Even GAMs.
red jtincn
Jenny takes in neat creatures, n'est ce pas?
JenT: Congrats on the contest final! Not that I'm surprised. Hope you win!
SDCB: I think I love your perfect DD, too. What a sweetheart. Sounds like Sarah is on her way to that status as well.
My dad used to call me "Grace" (guess I come by that sarcasm thing honestly), even though it was my younger sister for whom they bought a football helmet. For a while there they made her wear it every time she went outside -- guess they feared brain damage what with her hitting her head all the time. Little did they know there was nothing to protect. Ooops, did I say that? It's ok, she'd expect me to. Really.
One time long ago I was driving back to Mpls from Chicago with DH and his sister and her 4yo DD, who had just learned ALL THE WORDS to the song "The Rose." For five hours, I am not kidding, we listened to her sing that song. She finally stopped. Blessed silence. And DH said: "Gee, Susie, why don't you sing it again?" So she did. I thought it was a toss-up as to which of us, SIL or I, were going to kill him. But he was driving. Perfectly nice song, but I still can not listen to it.
Off to run more errands...
bw
Hmmm. I don't think Bob said anything about Princess being dumb. I think Princess is probably one of those that are mistaken for being dumb when they are, in fact, smart enough when they have to be.
Jen - woo hoo!! Congrats! Do let us know when they award you the prize. Note I said WHEN, not if.
Tigress: In legal circles when you produce documents for discover they are "bates stamped" with identifying numbers and letters, each page going up in sequence. Its named for the "Bates Mfg Company" which invented a stamper that automatically progressed to the next number in sequence after each use. Today we do all this on computers or with copiers that number the pages. But we still refer to those numbers as "bates numbers."
Long winded way of saying that galley pages will probably always be called galleys even long after they've stopped looking like the originals.
SDCB ... Scooped Up Cherry Bum ... I love it!!! LOL!!!
The weather here is absolutely fabulous today. Spent the morning doing stuff in the garden - very zen, gardening. Then mom and I baked an apple pie because dad "accidentally" bought too many granny smith apples (yeah, right). And now I'm going to check out ReaderWare which someone, probably Tal, mentioned on the Cherry Forums. I'm hoping it will be the answer to cataloging all the books we have in the house.
Then because the weather is so fab, I'm going to drag out the cusions for the patio swing and read awhile I do believe.
Play nice, y'all. Remember, we are snarky - but ladylike. Bless your hearts.
If Bob dislikes reading Galleys, and needs someone to read it for him, I volunteer!
Margarita Cherrybomb said: Remember, we are snarky - but ladylike.
That strikes me as a remark so memorable it is worthy of being inscribed somewhere in letters of fire.
I think that to be snarky, but ladylike, is an ambition that should be held up as an ideal for all young females.
:-D
Bryan said...
I just recieved galley pages for someone else's book that I'll be reviewing. It's printed on 8.5x11 paper, formatted as the page will appear in book form, with markings where the pages would be cut.
I think that's probably an ARC, advance reader copy. That's what they send out for reviews. They may be regular paper, but sometimes they're actual printed books, but with the caveat that they are not the final version.
AgTigress, you'd think that with so much digital that printers/publishers would use computer files, but there are a lot of big houses that still do it the old way. You can tell when they require a hardcopy, rather than an electronic file for the final submission, that some poor fool is going to have to type it in/typeset it. I was amazed and appalled that this was still the case, especially since that's how a lot of mistakes get put into a well-written and edited ms.
I wonder if it's a union thing over here. Our unions are very strong, e.g., used to be (maybe still is) that every train had to have a fireman on board (the kind that shoveled coal into the boiler to make it go), even though trains had stopped using steam decades before. So, maybe printers are required to keep typesetters in their shops, so they use them even though there are much easier ways to do it.
Jen-T, I have an Aeron chair in my office. Although they're expensive, they have a very long warranty, and the dealers are really nice about repairs. Should I mention the time I rolled my chair off the deck backwards? I managed to throw myself out before it went over, but it wedged between two trees. I broke the frame of the seat getting it unwedged. It was either that or cut down a tree. And they replaced the seat without a mumur.
Anyway, they're expensive, but worth it, especially for someone like me with back and neck problems. You can usually find them at fairly good prices online. That's how I got mine. It could be the only office chair you need for the rest of your life.
Also, on that ACL injury? Your DD has all my sympathy. Been there; done that, and it does hurt like a b*tch. You can't rush those tissue things. It's a shame she has to risk missing out on this team tryout, but as someone else said, it's more important to be able to use her arm without pain.
ettnnr (green)
It's that well-know life insurance company, when pronounced by a Bostonian. With a stammer?
Tigress: That strikes me as a remark so memorable it is worthy of being inscribed somewhere in letters of fire.
Now you've done it. Just wait until she gets ahold of the blow torch. It'll be memorable, all right.
MCB: She was kidding about the letters of fire, ok? You just kick back on the patio and relax.
I was wondering, when I noticed Bob had specified on what days he had written his latest post: Since Jenny told him he had to post twice, does he believe that counts as twice? Or was he just trying to tell us he was already writing something before we started whining about it? Which is what I would do, but I'm a stubborn old so-and-so who does not like to be told what to do.
And then I wondered, maybe when we start to whine (and no, it's not time yet, just go relax over there with MCB), maybe we should be more specific. You know, give them topics of interest or suggestions for what we'd like to know. Like the galley thing. Not that they'd comply, but still. Think how helpful it would be.
Of course, given most of us here, I also then thought about that old saying that goes something like "Don't open that can of worms unless you're prepared to eat them all." So maybe not.
Personally, one of the many things I'd love to hear more about is narrative structure vs. the 3 or 4 act structure. I'd even love to hear a good, detailed description of narrative structure (which Bob said in his workshop is used more in other genres than in romance).
But since most of the rest of you probably don't care about that, you'll have to make your own suggestions. Note I did NOT say "be suggestive."
bw
Zaza, in my experience, computer-setting direct from electronic files gives rise to just as many errors as conventional setting in letterpress; they are somewhat different kinds of errors, though.
I sincerely hope that the skills of typesetting are still being preserved, and if the unions are ensuring that, good for them!
Progress is good, but it is also good to retain and pass on the skills of the past. They sometimes turn out to be of unforeseen value in future situations that we have not yet envisaged.
But I am an archaeologist, so I would say that, wouldn't I?
;-) :-)
bcb I still want you and mcb to write your trip to Canada story on PAPER and send it to a humour magazine or something. It is funny. We all read it and loved it. Or start your own Blue Collar Comedy Tour. Go on the road with it. /,D
I haven't gotten any galley proofs yet. I still have quite a bit to write. I have about 17,500 words bryan but that is not close to being finished. I keep editing what I have written and so I am still on page 66 or something. I put it in and take it out. Sounds like you are doing the same thing. CMS and her writer's group say just write, damn it, and edit later. Isn't that what Bob says? Just get it down and you can edit later.
Trying to do that but right now I have been concentrating on my children's stories because I want to put them into a book. It is about a family of critters in a barn. I have most of the stories written but not all of them. I have at least three other characters to write about. I have my lovely CB readers working on them too. Great bunch of CBs.
Have to go the munchkin will be back soon. Lord, give me strength. The silence here right now is deafening. /,)
red nfnsyn
Not fair not saying your name. (All you lurkers.)
BCB - it pains me greatly ... you have no idea ... but I think you might have a point. Him and her drop these bits of wisdom on writing and publishing into our laps and we do actually, usually discuss them ... a little. But that bit might get lost in the morass of comments. So we could maybe highllight some questions for them to maybe answer in the next blog. But early on because otherwise Bob won't see them.
So ...
BOB AND/OR JENNY
The question has been raised ... What exactly does 'galley sheet' mean and how does it differ from copy edits (which Jenny mentions in her Argh Ink blog)? And are they still the long awkward sizes?
~~~
And now I must go bask in the glow of having received praise from the Tigress.
To everyone - Thank you! Kyrathered - no pen name, just me. Jennifer Talty. Click on my name (jen-t) and it will take you to my blog, which will then let you go to my web page. Simple - but first book doesn't come out until June, second book, no release date yet and still waiting on other books. Hopefully, this is my year.
DH has now decided to get in on the chair buying thing, ugh! He drives me nuts, but at least I know I'll get a good one.
MCB: Please tell me that is not a fiery glow...
I was in a room today with several people who could have answered the galley question, but did I think to ask it? I did not. Je le regret.
Scope Dope: Why don't you pretend MCB and I are just a couple more of your children -- ok, half-children or step-children, don't want to mess up the gene pool -- and YOU can write our travelogue for us. I need to focus what little energy I have left on writing something that might have a snowball's chance of publication someday. And standup comedy? No way. I get nervous in front of large groups. Geez. I couldn't even say more than three words to J&B when I met them.
bw
I want to hear about the narrative vs. 3 or 4 act structure, too.
I also would like more info on the structures. Jenny and Bob keep talking about doing the book in 4 acts and I don't think of books having acts.
Scooping Cherry Bum, I love that nickname, your book of stories sounds good.
Someone tell me where the story of BCB and MCB's trip is. That must have been before I started reading the comments and I want to go back and read it.
I'm going to need to invest in a whiteboard or heaven forbid look up Bob's information on story spreadsheets to keep my books storyline straight. Well, maybe I'll start that with the next one.
Someone said something earlier about Bob saying to just write the story and then go back and edit. That's the only way I can work but it means I rewrite the whole thing. That's what I'm doing now. Or I'm reading it and taking notes on how I'm going to rewrite it.
Finished Deb Dixon's GMC book today and was happy to see that I did have a Black Moment in this book. I need to lead up to it a little more I think but the Black Moment is there. Whew.
JenT are you at the lake yet. I'm sitting on the deck listening to the water lap at the docks and thinking of you and Jaws.
The mosquitoes that Bob doesn't notice are biting me so I'm going to head in. The weather is lovely though.
This post has been removed by the author.
RSS wrote: I want to go back and read it.
No you don't, bless your heart.
On the subject of "just write, edit later" -- it is impossible to go back and edit something you have not yet written. I know, I know, you're having a "well, duh" moment, but think about it.
And what Bob wrote in his Toolkit book about writer's block (which I've already quoted but bears repeating) was:
2. Just write anyway. It might be awful, but at least you’re left with something other than a blank page. You’ll be surprised how little difference there is between what you write when you feel motivated and what you write when you’re discouraged. They both come from the same brain.
Of course he also said a bunch of other great stuff, but everyone here has already read the book (right?) so you don't need me to tell you that. As a matter of fact, I had written a "review" of that book several months ago, but never put it in the comments, because it seemed everyone had already read it.
Since Amazon.com is out of the question [grin] I'll summarize: When I read a writing book, I put little yellow stickies on the pages that contain info I think I might want to go back and read again later. I ran out of stickies about half-way through Bob's book (though I didn't need any in Ch. 2, sorry darlin') and realized: this is just stupid, there are as many stickies as there are pages. Great book.
bw
Robin S - yep, I'm at the lake, in my front yard, wrapped in a warm fuzzy blanket, sipping hot chocolate because it's kind of cold up here. There is a wedding across the lake, and they are playing like really bad music.
Funny thing about this editing process and Bob because when he and Jenny wrote the first draft Bob actually thought he was done. Said something like he edits as he goes, but I think that's changed.
Back to writing.
MCB: You might very well be right about Princess. Although I know lots of people who are simultaneously stupid and cunning. I just got the impression that there was a lot of air up there with Princess. However, look what happened with Althea. Much more than I expected. 3D character development -- who'd a thunk it?
agtigress: I'm an anthropologist. Where do you work/school? My academic career is on hiatus while I breed little cute humans as a hobby.
Jen-T: I'll check out you website ASAP. Sadly, I can hear Tweety getting irked with 'just' daddy so I must dash.
Have I mentioned this place is great?
Kyrathered....
Welcome to this group...you fit right in.
I'v been reading away at Bob's "Toolkit"...read a bit then go read something else to let it soak into my brain.
JenT...enjoy your lake.
lacjgaj blue
love all Crusie,Jenny's give-aways and jabs (at Bob)
Dah Dah Dah da Look out jen. Couldn't resist. You rats, you and robin s sitting by the dock of the bay, wasting time...
BTW robin s that is "Scooped Up Cherry Bum". Someone told 4yo Sarah that the significance of the cherry bag for DD was that I was Scope Dope Cherry Bomb, but she came up with her own version.
I read Sarah the Kachook stories and she loved them but she says that in her story it should say she is having a sleep over at Mama and Mampa's house. Who knows...maybe that is how I can change it. And maybe even finish it. /,D
Holy Moley (see that talpianna always thinking of you.
blue xpltzbad
Xavier purely liked that Zaza began addressing Doherty (as Bob).
Scooped Up Cherry Bum...LOVE IT.
I think you should change your name. Kids are smarter and come up with great stuff.
My DD named our fish Bob the Squishy.
Jen T- Congrats. Please let us know when we can get our hands on your books.
Zaza- I'm not sure whether to laugh or cringe but I want to hear how your chair went backwards off the deck and into a tree.
lbooth
Bryan said... Oops!
Which is identical to the first link that I couldn't see until you fixed it. You were there, huh?
Who do you think took the picture?
Jen-T: Congratulations yet again! Of course, considering the cycle of your life, right about now you are being hit by a large meteorite....
MargaritaCherryBomb: Wasn't moi who mentioned ReaderWare; not only have I never heard of it, but I'm not on the CherryForums--just this one and Argh Ink.
AgTigress said:
I think that to be snarky, but ladylike, is an ambition that should be held up as an ideal for all young females.
In other words, we should all grow up to be Alice Roosevelt Longworth....
That strikes me as a remark so memorable it is worthy of being inscribed somewhere in letters of fire.
On a scooped-up cherry bum, perhaps?
olsmhbnr -- Oh, let someone murder her (Princess), Bob--Nora Roberts (would).
eohdyt -- Eohippus Diet--you're allowed to eat nothing but extinct prehistoric horses.
Talpianna comments on others' comments: That strikes me as a remark so memorable it is worthy of being inscribed somewhere in letters of fire.
On a scooped-up cherry bum, perhaps?
Hm. Maybe SDCB (thank goodness the acronym still works) needs a tattoo to go with her gold tooth and eye patch?
Glamour-Geek, doesn't "letters of fire" imply some sort of branding iron?
ixjqzcy -- The little man whose voice in my head keeps telling me to blow up Cleveland
Glamour-Geek,
While generally I yield to no one in my admiration for your fashion sense, if you give SDCB a tattoo in addition to her gold tooth and eye patch, then she'll simply have to have a parrot to perch on her shoulder as well. Next thing you know, she'll be out Depp-ing Johnny himself, and making us all walk the plank.
Now I ask you, is that a good idea? I Think Not.
Talpianna,
To me, "letters of fire" merely implies letters that are being sent to the post office in Chariots of Fire. But then I spent most of the afternoon trying on bathing suits in a very posh store, so my view is necessarily mixed with vinegar and ire.
Mary the Sour
(distant kinswoman to Eric the Red)
red lbddzyv - let's be dizzy, verily
KyratheRed said... I've got a tiara of my very own (not making that up) even if I think of myself as a Queen, not a Princess. A Queen is a princess who has accessed her inner bitch. I feed mine cookies.
ROFL!
Congrats JenT :)
amc said...
I want to hear about the narrative vs. 3 or 4 act structure, too.
Me three.
lbooth said...
Zaza- I'm not sure whether to laugh or cringe but I want to hear how your chair went backwards off the deck and into a tree.
Well, I was working on the deck, with my laptop on a TV tray. I was living in San Jose at the time, and it was hot, the house didn't have AC, and the deck was nice and shady. I guess everytime I got up, I edged closer to disaster, until, finally, I finished what I was doing with a flourish, rolled back with a sigh of relief that turned into a shriek as my chair went over the edge. ;+)))
We didn't put a railing there because we figured the trees would keep anyone from getting close enough to fall of. Hah. Also, it was only about 18" off the ground, but those trees were just close enough together for the chair to wedge between them. It was very embarrassing explaining how it happened. If Brad hadn't been out of the country, I'd have waited for him to get home. Mr. Ridiculously Strong could probably have done a Samson in the Temple only pushing the trees apart, so I could get my chair out without breaking it. Sigh.
dsttm (blue)
don't say that's Talpiana's mole
Oh, just so Bob doesn't miss the talking dirty:
rg quoth, "mud, mud, mud."
We're almost at 100, and I, for one, don't want the Bobster to feel deprived.
wnkzsg (green)
We now know Zoe's (a) sexy girl.
kyrathered said: I'm an anthropologist. Where do you work/school? My academic career is on hiatus while I breed little cute humans as a hobby.
Gosh, how did I give myself away? I am a very old, retired museum curator/Classical archaeologist.
I imagine that the cute little humans give you plenty of opportunity for continuing to apply anthropological analysis.
:-)
SDCB: you know I even went back and checked the name. I must have been more tired than I realized.
Zaza: Your story makes me very glad our deck has a rail. And that none of the chairs on it have wheels. I'm shuddering just imagining how you must have felt.
JenT: Chilly here too. I might have to switch to jeans and a sweatshirt.
I wonder if plotters have less editing to do than pantsers. I learned those terms at National. I'm a pantser and edit a lot. How about it plotters? Any of you out there?
blue ntfpv: Now take falling price value
Writing techniques and advice: my eye was caught by the allusion to Bob’s advice to get something onto paper at all costs, because it agrees precisely with a dictum of Nora Roberts’s, repeated in her current interview in Romance Writers Report: she opines that one can ‘fix’ a badly-written page, but not a blank one. It looks like an unanswerable argument, and is the opinion of immensely productive and successful authors. So, is it universally true?
Certainly it is advice that clearly works for Mayer and for Roberts, and, no doubt, for many other writers as well, but it seems worth making the point that it can be totally counter-productive for some other writers, those whose mental processes are evidently quite different from theirs.
(This is the 'plotter/pantser' divide mentioned above by Robin S, and I may say that that is the first, and definitely the last, time I shall use the revolting word 'pantser'.)
I have always found that when I have had to produce a ‘premature’ passage, a chunk of actual prose thrust out into the cold, cruel world before it has finished developing, no amount of ‘fixing’ will help it at a later stage: it always has to be deleted in its entirety, because it never fits properly into the eventual book. Premature text has sometimes been forced upon me when dummies have to be put together for the Frankfurt Book Fair, for instance, and I have never yet been able to incorporate such passages into a final manuscript. Their subject or theme will be in there, but in completely different words. Putting text on paper before things have gelled enough in the brain is actually a total waste of time for some of us: it simply delays the internal, structural process of arranging material in a way that will enable the first draft to flow properly.
For me, the writing advice that works is to get ever more detailed and refined plans (outlines) onto paper, a hierarchy of headings and sub-headings and sub-sub headings, and only to start filling them in with text when I am quite sure that the order of the argument builds properly. If any part of the body-text is written too early, it simply doesn’t slot in, and has to be, not merely edited, but completely dismantled, later. I write non-fiction, of course, and many of those headings will actually remain in the final text, but I don’t think that writing fiction is necessarily different if one’s mind happens to work that way. There are non-fiction writers who ‘just sit down and get words on paper, and edit them into shape later’, too.
Different approaches work for different writers, and my point is NOT that the Roberts/Mayer advice of ‘just write’ is wrong (clearly it isn’t, judging by their achievements), but only that it works for some authors and not for others. For certain novice writers, it could be a crucial element in getting their story out of their heads and onto the page, for opening up the creative process; for others, it would be an exhausting, disheartening and ultimately counter-productive sidelining of the true course of that process, delaying the moment when the whole concept comes together.
Actually, now I come to think of it, I consider that a broad division between those who plan what they write in advance, and those who sit down and plunge into things is a vast over-simplification anyway, so over-simplifed as to be, perhaps, false.
I suspect that the differences are more between those who plan consciously and those who do so subconsciously. There are also huge differences according to whether a person thinks verbally or visually, and 'planning', in any case, need not be linear but may be three-dimensional: Jenny's descriptions of her own creative process reveal a very complex web of connections in different dimensions and different media, but it is certainly planning.
I am deeply suspicious of rules about writing. Advice, yes. Insights into the ways other writers work, yes - all good stuff, fascinating and valuable. But the way we write is part of the individual personality of each one of us, and is therefore unique. Each of us has to find her own way.
Lake is great - no mediorite, not yet anyway. Didn't see jaws, although not thanks to SDCB I had to move my chair back from the water - thanks a lot. But i won't mention that me and youngest child had dinner at the neighbors and we cooked claims on the grill had about two dozen fresh lobsters and shrimp - nope, I'll leave that part out.
Getting ready to watch the great race. It's a bike, running, canue race and the last leg is canue. They come out from the beach about a mile from my cottage, then canue infront of my house for a couple of miles and then back. It's fun to watch.
Youngest son is driving me nuts - wants to go sit out on the boat and watch at a little closer range, so I'm off. Gotta keep the kids happy. See you later!
Okay, have to answer this one because until Nationals, I didn't know what I was. I guess I'm a plotter. I sit down and write like 20 pages of backstory on each character. Including stupid stuff, but anything that can help me understand who they really are. I then (no thanks to Bob) get out a makeshift spreadsheet and do a time line of the book. My books tend to happen over the course of a week or two. Longest one the time line is 4 weeks. And that, in my mind was too long. Then I make another spreadsheet which tells me what my characters are doing, why and when. Kind of mapping out the scenes. I do all this in pencil because it changes. Then I write. Make sense - guess that makes me a plotter. Also, my people live inisde my head for months, driving me insane, then new people start to edge them out and that's when it really starts to get crazy and I need medication.
Okay, gotta get in the boat before son takes laptop and tosses it, which wouldn't be good.
Thank you Antitigress. Sorry about the pant... word. It's not mine BTW. You have a very good point about the conscious and unconscious planning. I think through the story and have the main plot elements and backstory before I start writing but outlining destroys my creativity. Probably because I'm allergic to structure.
If it works for you, then do it is what I brought home from National. But you have to know how to do it well. Working on that part.
Louis: Just reading my digests from the JCF and your explanations of cherry bombs and the verification sentences were excellent
red zxmqzvfb zigging xtreme mosquitoes zero (in)verifying fly bys
Blogger if you give me junk I write junk
green npbzy no princess Bob zero yex
Tigress: Very coherent description of the difference between writers who "plot" and those who write "by the seat of their pants" -- hence the revolting term, which I don't like either.
I'm not sure in what context NR was talking about just getting something on the page (haven't read it yet), but Bob was giving advice about what to do in the case of writer's block, when you think you just can't write anything. And I think the advice to just do it anyway is valid. Whether you are writing an outline or detailed passages. I don't think he intended to suggest a change in writing method (though I've heard that sometimes works, too), just that if you have work to do, go do it. By whatever means suits you.
But it was just one part of his advice and I'm too lazy to go downstairs and look it up just now, but I believe he also advised (among other things) having several other projects going at the aame time and working on something else for a while.
I start a book with a sort of free flow of information, getting a feel for the characters, knowing full well I am likely to go back and substantially revise or delete the entire beginning. But pretty soon I have to graph the plot (I write romantic suspense) because I find it too difficult to keep all the details straight in my head. One method that works well for me is the "W" plotting chart, with different W's for the romance and suspense threads. Of course they keep changing slightly as I write. And this seems to fit well with the 3/4 act structure, so I am curious to know about narravtive structure. I'm thinking that for the current book I may have to make a timeline as well, which I dread.
I have a long list of things I'd like J&B to discuss. Maybe I'll go write it down. Maybe not.
First I have to go make a sour cream blueberry pie and then put a roast in the oven. My house is going to smell sooo good today.
Louis is trying to explain the cherry bombs? LOL. Brave man.
bw
Robin S said: Sorry about the pant... word. It's not mine BTW.
Oh, I realise that, Robin! My objection is partly (though not wholly) because of the different nuance of 'pants' in British and American English: the usual meaning in BE is 'knickers / underpants'. Although we recognise its use to mean 'trousers', for Brits of my generation, the immediate mental picture (if one thinks in pictures) is of underwear.
To me, the plotter is someone with a mask and a bomb. The (ugh) other one is sitting around helplessly wearing nothing but a pair of droopy drawers...
:-D
Tigress wrote: Each of us has to find her own way.
This sounds so lonely. And true. But one of the things I love most about RWA and my chapter in particular and workshops and meetings is that other writers do give advice, and do explain what works for them, and every once in a while something clicks or makes sense in a way that has the ring of truth and you realize it could work for you too. If you just twist it a bit here, and tweak it a bit there...
One of my favorite memories is hearing Lisa Gardner give a talk and her saying that her characters don't have clothes. She doesn't like to describe clothes, so her characters don't wear any. Period. Works for her. She just cracked me up.
bw
BCB - thank you for that additional information about Bob's advice. It is possible that getting some words on paper might help to break a complete state of creative stasis for some people. The problem is that if what one has written is totally useless and unusable (whether outline or actual text), it tends to confirm rather than to solve the problem of getting moving, because it is depressing. Instead of being unable to say anything, one has said something, and it's crap. That seems to me a retrograde step; one has moved backwards rather than staying in the same place.
For me, the advice to go away and do something else (which is just about the exact opposite, when yuou come to think of it) is FAR more useful. What happens then is that the subconscious can get to work, and often it will sort stuff out, as long as one isn't watching it. I have seldom been completely stuck about writing, in part because factual writing always gives one some structure, but also, I think, because the nature of my work has meant that I am always writing more than one project at a time, and the ones I am not working one mature somewhere in the recesses of the subconscious while I am actually typing words into the computer on another book or article.
bcb can I come to dinner? Pleeeease? That sounds so good.
jent that wasn't really a shark. It was just the music.
Is it possible to be both a plotter and a pantser? I plotted the outline chapter by chapter but then I think about my subject for months then sit down and just write. I don't know what I am.
I don't have a mask and a bomb but I have an eyepatch and a gaping hole in my mouth (or will have). No tatoos until talpianna brands me. Oh no I forgot. That is scooped up cherry bum she is branding. Not me! Phew!
Who suggested I change my name? Don't know that I want to do that now that the Mole lady has a hot branding iron waiting. And she would probably add a mole to that message. /,D This icon really looks like me.
red ltidb
Live the ideal dream, Bob.
Antitigress: LOL at your pictures of the two types of writers. Hadn't made the connection of pants with knickers. Now everytime I here the two terms I'm going to see those pictures and start chuckling. I love it.
I have to do as Bob said and just sit and write because going off and doing something else thinking the book is my preferred activity. I've spent the past 30+ years thinking books but never got around to writing them down because my brain froze when I started.
Some days I write and revise and write, revise because it's crap but even if I only have 1000 words to show for how ever many hours I've sat at the computer, it's something and the next day everything starts flowing. If I'm just thinking it, not at the computer I want to keep doing that because it's easier and eventually I still have to sit down and go through that day where words do not flow, they drip, slowly with long intervals between them.
Today is probably going to be a drip day but tomorrow, ah tomorrow will be marvelous and those are the days I live for as a writer.
green iztun iz tune
red tvvhpfq total value varies happily Penny figures quietly I need to find more q words.
Tigress sez: Putting text on paper before things have gelled enough in the brain is actually a total waste of time for some of us: it simply delays the internal, structural process of arranging material in a way that will enable the first draft to flow properly.
I'm in this camp as well (and note I only write non-fiction). Even worse, I find that putting words on paper prematurely freezes the text in an immature state. Once it's on paper, it no longer flows and it's STUCK. Frequently at this stage I'm unable to go back and rewrite something better because my brain thinks it's done, even if it's crap.
The worst paper I have ever written was for a professor who (1) Insisted on a topic for the paper about 3 weeks into the course. 2 weeks later I had a great topic, but it was too late to change because by then he'd insisted on a (2) OUTLINE of the paper. When I pointed out that not everyone writes to outlines (especially that early!), I was reprimanded. Here's this bozo trying to teach us to write when we are graduate students completing our final coursework. If we haven't learned to write yet, how'd we get where we were?
The outcome was the worst writing I have ever produced. But nevermind because, oddly, EVERY woman in the class got a C, regardless of her work. Hmmmm.....
That said, I remember working on my master's thesis and thinking I had the basic organization plotted and planned (at least the section headings). I sat in front of the computer for about a week (time I didn't have) trying to figure out how to write what I needed to say and producing nothing. Then I reorganized the sections in my head and wrote about 75 pages in 3 days. The stewing week was necessary.
I can go back and fix text that needs tweaking, but only if it was allowed to mature naturally in my head, not if it was produced prematurely.
So the real solution for me is to do all the research, work, etc. I can in advance and cram my brain full of information, let it stew in my head until it's cooked, and then write like a demon when it's ready...and usually first draft is very close to final for me, because I do all the sifting, sorting, throwing away and re-organizing in my head, subconsciously, first.
But this is the way *my* brain works. I note that my father works much the same way, so it must be a learned behaviour.
Scope Dope said: Is it possible to be both a plotter and a pantser?
I think it is: as I said, I don't think the distinction is a valid one, or at least, is not a useful one. I think, now I have considered it, that everyone is always both of those things. Everybody has to plan what she wants to say, and whether she does that planning unconsciously in her mind, consciously in her mind, or consciously in written words on paper, planning has taken place.
And everybody has to seize and capture the elusive words of the final text, and respond to them as well as direct them. However detailed the plan, the final text will always bend it a bit, because the work takes on a life of its own when it enters the instinctive phase.
I think that the differences are NOT therefore between the writer who plans and the writer who wings it: we all do both. The differences are only in the order and mode and comparative proportions of those complementary aspects of the process.
Seems as soon as I'm gone for a while (BTW, daughter and twit landed safely in Houston and I can concentrate on other things again), this blog is picking up speed.
As a PR writer, I just need to get something on paper whether I have good stuff in mind or not. (PR people are always under pressure.) So I like Bob's advice of starting anyway - it often turns out better than I expected. When I write non-fiction, I am definitely a plotter. I cannot work without an outline and many notes nd a clear concept.
But ever since I started to write fiction, I have done it the Jenny way - start at different corners depending on what I feel like writing and putting (and editing) it together later. until then, I keep different files for different characters and their POV. Often I start with a rather blurry idea of where this might lead to, and then the person develops his/her own dynamics and I end up someplace completely different but mostly better. It is as if the people in my head were saying 'now this is no way to do it, let's do it differently' - maybe like actors who suggest a better way of doing a scene - and I just tag along and write it down. Sort of like the secretary.
Sounds weird? Okay, I'll get the t-shirt with the inscription "I'm a schizophrenic" in front and on the back it says "Me too".
wpbgsumg - work patiently but getting somewhere, unexpected magic guaranteed
The internal process you describe is very close indeed to my own experience, Glamour-Geek. I evidently write down much more of the planning than you do, but the 'maturing' or 'stewing' process is very familiar. If that hasn't happened, anything I write will be a total waste of time; not only will it not advance the work - it will actually delay it, or even undermine it completely, like your abortive paper.
I rather doubt if this is learned behaviour. I think it has to do more with the way in which our brains process information, and while this may be refined or tweaked a bit by training, I think much of it is innate.
G-G wrote: I can go back and fix text that needs tweaking, but only if it was allowed to mature naturally in my head, not if it was produced prematurely./.../I do all the sifting, sorting, throwing away and re-organizing in my head, subconsciously, first.
Ok, I'm sitting here laughing because this is the part that I just assumed.
Sometimes I think the basic process is the same for everyone, we just give it different names and some of us like to see it in our heads and some like to see it on paper. Of course, then Tigress drops in and explains something in a way I'd never considered and I see the error of my assumptions. And I just realized that Colognegrrl does this with some regularity, too.
I'm still shaking my head over the differences in the way we "see" characters, Tigress. Fascinating stuff.
Geez. Hit "preview" and see CG has just posted. I feel like I'm conjuring demons. [grin] SO glad your daughter landed safely!
Ooops. The timer is beeping. Later-
bw
While I wrote my above comment, G-G commented on the "Stewing in the Head" and while the picture my mislead you to imagine a terrible mush of no longer distinguishable components in a big pot, I think it is a necessary process. For me it is definitely the precedent of fiction writing - and of non-fiction too, I guess. I just didn't realize it because I usually do so much research during this time that I don't recognize the stewing has already begun.
Right, BCB. Imagine us sitting at our computers on two different continents but otherwise really close. It's blog magic.
ggkubtq - glamour-geek's knowledge unfolds beautifully to questions (honestly, these were the letters blogger gave me!)
Talpianna: It was Alice Roosevelt Longworth (no relation to Alice Longbottom) who had the pillow that said 'if you can't say anything nice about someone ... come sit right next to me. She was Oscar Wilde in drag. And your pun about extinct horses made my head implode. Come clean up the mess.
Agtigress: Old museum curates get better with age. They start to recognize some of the stuff their grad students dig up now (snork). My current cute human, Tweety Bird, makes me wish I had studied political scinece instead of anthropology ... because she is obviously got plans for world domination.
Glamour geek: the professor who gave all the women C's was a pig/dog. His mother was a hamster and his father smelt of elderberries.
My two cents on the pants/plotter debate. First, writing the word pants should count as talking dirty to Bob. Hmmm ... puns about the hairy plotter and half-baked prints do come to mind. I think the real difference is quantity; not quality. Each writer can produce great works, but the plotter will get more of it out there for his/her rabid fans. For example ... I have never read a Nora Roberts book that didn't please and entertain me, and she writes a book a month almost. Jenny, who comes out with books at a very respectable pace (although never enough, it can nver be enough) writes books I freakin' treasure. I worship at her Alter of Snark. But I also love Douglas Adams, who finished his books at gunpoint. But I have only a few Adams books because he was not orginized, and without orgination and drive their can be profeciency but not proliferation. And sometimes the story runs away with the writer, so you see a book every 7 years ... but it's the size of the Mayflower. Here I am thinking of Auel and Galbadon. So I think the process is both unique and identical for writing good books ... but how many good books are you going to write? There are good writers in both categories.
Mary the Sour (no relation ot Eric the Red) try adding whiskey to the sour. I heard whiskey sours are espeically good with a cherry in them, so maybe they are especially good in a cherry :0)
Erica: thank you for the ROFL. I collect them and when I have enough, I'll redeem them for a week in Hawaii.
kyrathered sez: Hmmm ... puns about the hairy plotter and half-baked prints do come to mind.
*owwwwww!* Could someone come take this knife out? I can't quite reach it.
Brilliant, girl. Brilliant.
Mary: after the week or two you endured with that tech manual, I think you should consider kyra's suggestion about adding whiskey. Use internally, take only as directed.
zaza: loved the chair story. I know that feeling of pushing back after completing something. Shame about the unexpected drop, but really, really funny.
huzwphbt: question asked by cherrybombs upon awakening after our last party.
So...when is the NEXT party?
glamour geek: I am so proud. A pun is the lowest form of wit, and after breast feeding for the last year, I have really low wits.
Perhaps zaza should bring Moot a wee chair to put in her palm tree?
KyratheRed said: Each writer can produce great works, but the plotter will get more of it out there for his/her rabid fans.
I'm not so sure about that. I write far more slowly than my husband, who just sits down at the keyboard and writes. By the time I have fussed and fretted and produced the 46th detailed and heavily-annotated plan and perhaps 6000 words of text as lumpy as a ploughed field, he will be half-way through a 200,000-word catalogue. He does a lot of subsequent editing, but he definitely works on the basis of 'get it on paper first', and he is a fast writer.
Another colleague of mine, now deceased, claimed to be incapable of using even a typewriter, let alone a computer. He would churn out page after page of neatly handwritten copy on lined paper, which never seemed to require much editing at all - certainly not the moving of whole paragraphs and sections that I seem to do. He'd get his draft typed, improve the punctuation here and there, and it was ready for the printer. He and I collaborated on one book: T. completed his four chapters with a flamboyant flourish before I had even staggered to the end of one of my three. It all came together in the end, and the book is still in print after 14 years, so both methods work. But in my experience, the 'instinctive' writers are often much quicker than the compulsive planners.
SCOPE DOPE: I can't believe I was so rude as to not answer you immediately! OF COURSE you can come for dinner, it would be an honor. It is a long-standing tradition in my family (though we do let you sit) that the door is always open and there is always an extra place at the table. Always. I extend that invitation to all of you, any time. Well, maybe not all at once. Oh, why not. WTH, we don't all need to sit.
My grandma used to tell a story about when she was a young teenager (on a working farm) and one day during harvest season she had just fed breakfast to something like two dozen workers and had cleaned it all up, and had a huge amount of chores to do before she had to come back and feed them all lunch in just a few hours. A drifter-type man walked into the yard and asked whether they had any food they could spare. Grandma was exhausted (and irritated with her younger sister who was feigning a headache and not helping) so she said there was nothing.
Her father, a man of very few words, had been standing nearby and overheard. He came up behind her, squeezed her arm in a silent reprimand so hard it left bruises, and said "We have plenty."
So grandma, indignant put-upon teenager that she was, made up a HUGE batch of pancakes, maybe thirty, more than one one person could possibly eat, with all the trimmings (whatever they were, I don't recall). She plopped it all down on the table and went off to do her chores. They had nothing to steal, she didn't think twice about leaving the man there to eat it alone. She came back a while later, the man had left, and he had eaten everything. Everything. She said she felt so ashamed when she realized just how hungry he had been, she sat down and cried. She never, ever turned away a stranger again.
So I mean it when I say you all are welcome. Any time.
DS21 and a friend are coming through town this evening on their way to somewhere else and he called yesterday and asked whether I would please make them some food. (I am so proud that he has finally figured out I need more than 20 minutes notice to make a big meal.) So be aware that their, ahem, manners while eating are that of college students.
The pie is cooling and the roast is in the oven. It smells great. We're eating about 7:30 EST.
bw
That is an amazing story about your grandma, Bon Cheri, and beautifully told. Very moving.
:-)
Well, it's her story, not mine -- and just one of many. I wish I could remember all the parts I've forgotten. Her brother was the best story-teller ever and could hold us spellbound for hours. Why didn't anyone think to record these stories in some way while they were still fresh?
And that regret is why, Scope Dope, I believe it is so important you write YOUR stories. After dinner. You'd best leave now or you'll never make it in time. I'd give you directions, but... well, we all remember that story.
bw
Agtigress, you have some valid points. But that is assuming the 'pants' writer has the drive to write a lot, and quickly. I guess the only thing that can be said is that there are no sterotypes ... there is no one type of writer or the other. I know O. Henry was said to think about a story, then write it ready-to-read in one draft. Maybe some prewrite their story internally for longer and others hammer it out as they go. Maybe all do both. I have a friend who has written a book (he's having trouble getting it published inasmuch as it doesn't fit any particular genre, which is a shame because it's really good) and he insists that he is watching the story unfold in his head and he is 'channeling' as much as anything when he writes. Gabaldon reported a similar feeling about characters on her website too. I don't think the process is the same for any two people, but there must be some commonalities somewhere. Writing, especially fiction, is art ... and art cannot really be defined. Where is the muse? Is it in an outline? For some, yes. For Diane Ackerman it is in her bubble bath. Isn't it all basically a querry on where do writers find their inspiration? I still think writers who preplot, are, in general, more able to churn out good work because the orginization always gives them a starting point. But there are always going to be many exeptions. I wonder how many unwritten books there are in the world, that only exist in the heads of those who never wrote them down? Hmmmmm. I'll bet the ones who plot are more likely to have at least gotten it on paper. The first step is often the most important. But I haven't written a book. So my opinions are like an armchair quarterback's ... not really based on personal experiance. I think I'll write a book and call it Prostitution as a Hobby. Catchy title, no? It could be about flyfishing, but my goodness what a cover.
BCB: That is a great story about your grandma. I was raised that the worst sin a woman could commit was to have a hungry guest. To this day my mom and I will stuff anyone at our table like a Christmas Turkey. My husband fears my mom's breakfasts because her battle cry of 'just a little more bacon for you?' has given him and extra five pounds every time we visit. You know the Mrs Clause in the old Rudolph the Rednose Reindeer cartoon who was always saying "eat Santa, eat. No one wants a skinny Santa" every time she appeared? That's my mama.
BCB: Love the story. And generosity has its way of repaying, whether that's your intention or not.
Little things: My cousin (well, pseudo-cousin, my father's oldest friend's son) was in grad school for a while and came out to visit Calif. Since he was living near Cleveland, I asked where he wanted to go for dinner and what he was craving, food-wise. His answer was sushi. So we went. While we were perusing the menu, he said there was something that he wanted, but it was more than he could afford on a grad student living. I told him to order it, dinner was my treat. When I was in grad school, friends with jobs took me out for dinner so that I could go with them and not be excluded just because I couldn't afford it. The deal was this: when he was out of grad school and had an income, he had to do the same for other people who couldn't afford it. Pass it along, as it were.
Cousin has since moved to the area and we went out for sushi the other night. He said it was his treat. "You've taken me out for dinner often enough, and now I'm working." It was a lovely surprise and totally unexpected.
Give me a little notice, since usually I grocery shop for a single gal and would need to get in supplies, but you're all welcome to come on over (to my small apartment...we'll fit somehow). If I don't have groceries, we can always go out for sushi. :)
bon cheri bomb I will get my private pilot and be on my way. I should arrive around 7 p.m. I have the same rule at my house. There is always room for one more and it is a good thing because I find I am usually having "one More" on holidays. /,D
Can't drive down to see you for supper because Cherry Magic Sheryl is sitting on the start/finish line at the Nascar Nextel Cup Race in Watkins Glen. She took her friend and My grandson Michael. It is Michael's 16th birthday present. They were all excited so I hope they are having a good time.
Can't stay awake. Too many pain killers. Going for a nap.
Thanks for all the good discussion on the writing. Glamour Geek I think your process sounds like mine.
green cofxjmkv
Clear Ohio first Xavier, Jenny's manuscript kills victims.
OK, just when we're having really thoughtful discussions of the writing process, we start getting laugh-out-loud puns dropped in (Kyra! Geez.). And I completely agree about the ladylike snarkiness.
I only write non-fiction and opinion essays, and they tend to go completely differently. For the non-fiction, there's definitely a mental outline, if not an actual written one (although a detailed outline can make exposition REALLY fast). For the opinion stuff, I tend to start and see where it goes, hopping back and shifting things around as I work. I can spend several minutes searching for a word, but rarely revise much, once I've found it.
Kyra et al., regarding your Alice Roosevelt Longfellow line - a friend and I were sitting next to one another at a wedding last week, and, at one point, her husband suggested we should be separated. I'm not sure if he felt left out of the snarky (but ladylike, really) comments, or that we were behaving in an unseemly fashion...
PAGES of new comments since I started writing this - BCB, what an amazing story, and I think your dinner sounds fabulous, too. I need to do my own cooking, since I slacked off yesterday and got NOTHING done. I seem to have chosen a Spanish theme for this week's recipes. I've started choosing 2 or 3 recipes to prepare over the weekend, which feeds me all week. One or two is vegetarian, for my eat-low-on-the-food-chain meatless Mondays (which keeps me lower on the food chain for the rest of the week, too). This means that early in the week, there could be visitors, given plenty of warning so I can tidy 'round, but late in the week, there would have to be cleaning-warning, choose-a-menu-warning, shopping-warning AND prep-warning, which probably brings us back to the beginning of the week!
mqzacc: Mystically quiet, Zaza added cogent comments
poklhf: phylogenetically, ontological knowledge leads helpful facts
Y'all are very active, especially for a Sunday, as it's often a quiet day around here!
tjiqap: Tyranical jealousy ignites queries about progeny
Starting in a week, I'll be shopping/cooking for one as well. Almost made me cry in the grocery store yesterday when that little thought went through my unprepared brain. Not like it's a big surprise or anything, just hadn't thought of it in those terms until I was deciding whether to buy a dozen eggs and realized DD18 wouldn't be home to eat them (one of her favorites).
And yeah, a little notice is always good, but not necessary. I can order takeout with the best of them.
bw
ufhwcfmz: I'm going to keep ignoring these until blogger starts behaving nicely (plus, all I see here are swear words)
Thanks, Robin
Commenters should gather all the writing hints and publish and give Robert a run against his "Toolkit"
rgithlt blue
Robert gives it to (the) h(i)lt
Kyra, our mamas must be sisters under the skin because they sound very much alike at least where feeding people is concerned.
Really love the writing discussion. So interesting to get insights as to how peoples brains work. Maybe my definition of a plotter was too rigid. I was thinking only of someone who does spreadsheets or timelines on paper or on the computer. This whole question came up for me at National where I sat with a friend and she nicely listened to the plots of the eight books I have rumbling around in my head and said I must be a plotter. Since when I write, I don't use outlines and the story changes as the characters develop I hadn't thought of it that way. As several of you have said, writers are probably a combination of both.
BCB: loved the story about your grandmother. And your dinner sounds delicious. Maybe I'll shock my family one day and cook a meal again.
Being called to lunch. DH cooked this one. He has definite GAM days.
Diane: I'm filing your Geez under ROFL and counting it toward my trip to Hawaii. The evil satisfaction of a killer pun ... it's almost it's own reward.
Someone (a sexist egotistical cretin) once asked my husband in a 'joking' ... i.e. passive agressive manner what it was like to have such a bossy loudmouth wife. Casey replied, deadpan, (he's a Taurus, everything is deadpan) "Well, I get off on it." This amused me. Like Teddy once said, he could run the county or Alice ... but not both.
opps .. Tweety Bird is awake and I am now off line for some hours. I'll miss ya'll ... stop Tweety! Don't paint the dog!
This will be a far stretch back, but I have this ongoing battle with people who don't understand the difference between a woman and a lady (with or without snark) and they (nearly universally male) don't acknowledge that there's any difference between a man and a gentleman.
I'd kick them all with my ultra-pointy shoes, but I have better things to do.
As for plotters v. pantsers, I have edited manuscripts by both, and the plotters was better. OK, maybe that's not quite fair. The plotter's was better, but she had put a lot of work into it before she asked me to read it before sending it to an agent.
THe pantsers (a collaboration) sent me their manuscript on which they had done virtually no critical work. At 69,000 words, it was half of their original mss and they had whacked out with abandon pieces of their story with no eye to what it did to the continuity or logic of their story.
And everytime they went to a writers' conference and learned of a new approach or technique, they plugged it in indiscriminately and after my third read-through, I could pick out at what point the learned a new thing.
They wanted to plunge ahead into their series without ever looking back.
On the non-fiction side, I also deal with writers who assume the reader will just intuitively guess what the story is about and they don't seem to get that readers need a map to get through somethings.
When I write -- non-fiction -- I appear to be a pantser, but I have internalized the plotting step after 20 years so it's not that apparent. But then again, even in college I would sit down at a typewriter and whip out a term paper, while roommates labored through an outline and seven drafts.
God, I AM old.
sigh.
G&T
Ahhh, sometimes my life it just way too freaking fun. Spent the morning with the family on the boat watching the canues in the great race go by. Did a little waterskiing. Yes, I waterski, alot. I can go in the water during the day, it's just a night I have issues and SDCB it's the music that totally freaks me out, so knock it off! Anyway, DH decided to take the kids home with him. DD had a thing to go to and he thought he'd give me a little breathing room by taking the boys golfing! I'm alone, at the lake, gotta love it.
I'm sitting in the front yard, about five two feet from the dock. It's maybe 80 degrees and it's not humid. A breeze is rolling in off the lake and the people in my head are happy. Well, actually they are terrified right now because the bad guy is doing bad things, but that is okay, I'm at peace. Just taking a little break and thought I'd say hello.
I dont' believe in writier's block. And in the three years I've been writing for publication, I've never had it. I've had times where it's like pulling teeth to get the story out and it will take me hours to write a couple of pages, but once I get to the other side then the pages fly. If I think something is not working, I'll move onto something else. I keep a file of story ideas and research notes and I'll work on that. Eventually, the light bulb turns on, or I remember to get a fresh one.
Even those of you who think of yourselves as pantser have to plot to a certain extent. You might be able to do that inside your head, but you think about what will happen and how you will get your people there. Even us plotters sometimes end up flying from the seat of our pants. My well planed spreadsheet sometimes turns into garbage because my people decide I was wrong and the story must do something else. I guess the point is, if it works, don't fix it. As writers, we all have things that work for us. I like to have my music on, but the TV distracts me. I can work anywhere, anytime.
Okay, enough of a break - back to the book.
G&T: Not sure the differences you noted had much to do with P v. P. Maybe more to do with experience and the perils of a collaboration? Hearing Jenny talk about her collaboration with her Well Behaved girls, it was pretty apparent to me that one of the main requirements (for success) was experience. Years of it.
There are published authors in my chapter who claim to favor one style over another and you would never know it to read their books. Same thing with those who claim that plot v. character comes more easily for them. One in particular who says plot comes easily (her plots are terrific) and she really labors over her characters -- geez, her characters are amazing. But she says she has to work harder on those, because it doesn't come easily. Again, experience, and the resultant self-awareness of one's strengths/weaknesses as a writer, is a factor.
bw
BCB, that's very true. My very nice collaborators were an older married couple writing a YA sci fi and it was their first manuscript. I'm not sure how collaborative it was.
The important thing I guess is to slog through the whole process to understand how all the pieces work.
Once you understand the process, you don't have to think about that so much and you can do the work.
G&T
For the authors of fiction among you, the Economist reviews 4 new thrillers this week and has this to say, with regard to the fact that two of the 4 books have female protagonists:
Publishers want to expand the genre's appeal away from the purely male. [...] But do women readers share the male fascination with espionage? Perhaps they should: from Mata Hari to the female agent who lured Mordechai Vanunu into a Mossad trap, some of the best spies have been women.
And, at the end of the article:
While politicians stumble, it is left to novelists to make sense of the world.
So, whatever you're writing, go, work. The world is waiting for you.
G-G wrote: And, at the end of the article:
While politicians stumble, it is left to novelists to make sense of the world.
Is that what they think we're doing? Boy, are we in trouble.
Thanks for that last bit, G-G.
bw
Wow. You people have been busy while I've been watching the butterflies flit between my lantana and my butterfly bush.
Tal - The ReaderWare wasn't you? Huh. Now I have to go back and figure that out so I can give credit where its do. For those curious, its a software you can download to catalogue your books (and I think there are versions for music and videos too) by using the barcode numbers (e.g. ISBN) or by using a scanner across the barcode. I have a Q:Cat that's been sitting uselessly in a drawer from back when RadioShack was giving them away so I downloaded the trial version and set to work last night. Pretty nifty I must say. I get 30 days to try it out and that should be enough time to decide if its really worthwhile. I think it might be.
We have floor to ceiling shelves of books, books in drawers, books on stands, books in corners ... its all rudimentally organized by format, genre (loosely), and author. And while I know, for instance, that I've got all the Nora's and all the Jenny's and all the JAKs - I have trouble recalling if I have that in paperback or hardback. And I get lots from the library too and then later can't remember if I own that book or borrowed it. So this may be the answer to my problems.
Re the "getting something on paper" theory of writing, perhaps it can be a way of priming the pump? Even if you don't use what you put down, maybe the act of writing something can get the juices flowing.
I can see, actually, where both plotting and free form writing have merits. Plotting to give the book structure - beginning, middle, end and getting rid of the darlings, as Jenny put it. And free form to work the imagination and give us those wonderful attention-grabbing scenes.
Glamour-Geek quoted ... "But do women readers share the male fascination with espionage? "
*sigh* Do you just want to throw something at them? I guess they figure that since those books had heretofore been predominantly about men, that women wouldn't be interested. Jeez.
Oh, Tal, I do owe this one to you ... Dad really likes the Preston/Child books. He's not a huge reader but since retiring he'll sit with a book for short periods and is slowly but steadily working his way through them. Also picked up a Clive Cussler and one the Richard Sharp novels (Cornwell, Cromwell - something like that) from the library yesterday for him to try out.
And yes, I'm still basking here .... glow little glow worm, glitter glitter ...
Bon Cheri - Meant to say also that the story about your grandmother was lovely. My mother remembers bums coming to the house sometimes when she was a young girl. With 8 kids and little money Gram was stretching things as it was; but no one ever left her house hungry, including the bums.
Writers craft ideas, ideas change the world, thus writers change the world. Of course, this would die under an onlaught of Occam's Razor BUT it's a nice idea. Which changed the world ...
G-G said the world is waiting for us. Oh yay. Hear that editors. The world wants to read what we have to say.
Yep, BCB. It's kind of scary.
Women read espionage and thrillers. And we know what we are capable of.
eaqoyj elegant quarks over yon Jenny
teresa in PGH if you write stroppybrunette@yahoo.com you might learn more about Edinburgh and I think she lives in that area of the world. Not Edinburh itself but not that far away. I got her address from JCF and she was talking about a trip to Edinburgh. She wants all the Cherries, that are near there, to meet there.
Haven't written today. Can't stay awake for very long. It is just one of these days. I am going back to my children's stories since I have critques to look over and revisions to make. /,)
tcekw red
Tell Crusie, everyone kept writing.
Thanks so much, Scope Dope! I'll give her an email.
I hope you are feeling better soon! No fun to not feel well. No fun at all. *hug*
Theresa in Pgh
Blogger is being mean to me today.
Do you think The Economist thinks it has any female readers?
G&T
I don't really like the term pantser because, aside from it sounding rude, it doesn't really describe what the non-planning writers do. To me, a pantser sounds like someone who just decides one day that they will write a book, a book about butterflies, and love, and fuzzy kittens, and sits down to free associate on paper or computer. A flake, IOW, rather than a writer.
When I sit down to write and crank out 20k words in a weekend, believe me when I say, I'm not free associating. I may not have done an outline or a spreadsheet and any physical planning, but the idea has been perking in my subconscious for lo these many days, weeks or months.
Kyra the Red said...
I know O. Henry was said to think about a story, then write it ready-to-read in one draft.
That's it exactly! When I was in school, I never worked on major papers until the day before they were due, which was usually a Monday. I'd wake up Sunday morning and sit there and write 10-15 pages without stopping. All that remained to finish up was to draw my conslusions and tie up the loose ends by page 20 and, the hardest part, get it typed. The ideas were busy working themselves out in my head while I did other things. ;+)
Like Bryan was saying after an earlier post, trying to outline or plan plot, arcs etc. just kills the whole process for me. I finished my first book in a little over a month, at 80k, at least the putting words on paper part. Who knows how long it was rattling around in my head before that month?
I used to call my style of writing, or I should probably say "my process," Zen. Now, I call it organic. But whatever you want to call it, we Zen/organic/pantsers work just as hard and effectively as the planners. Don't mess with process.
Jen-t said...
I guess I'm a plotter. I sit down and write like 20 pages of backstory on each character. Including stupid stuff, but anything that can help me understand who they really are. I then (no thanks to Bob) get out a makeshift spreadsheet and do a time line of the book.
I took an Elizabeth George seminar once, and one series of exercises involved answering questions about our characters - what would you find in your character's refrigerator, or closet, what does their office/studio/workspace look like, that kind of thing. While this exercise was interesting to me, it's not something I would ever do before I write. When I sit down to write, it's because there's a logjam of story in my head, and I have to get the words on "paper" before I lose them.
AgTigress said...
It is possible that getting some words on paper might help to break a complete state of creative stasis for some people. The problem is that if what one has written is totally useless and unusable (whether outline or actual text), it tends to confirm rather than to solve the problem of getting moving
True. But in fiction, you have things like character studies (backstory, appearance, tastes, habits etc.) you can spend time on when the story isn't coming. I only resort to a timeline when I know I'm getting the continuity screwed up, especially when the whole book takes place over a few days. There's a lot to get into a short time, and everything has to be in the right order, or it doesn't work. So, I can't say I never do that kind of thing, but I do them after the fact, so to speak.
zyzrp (blue)
ZaZa yells zealously, "Respect process!"
How convenient was that?
Zaza: Thank you. You have described the organic process so much better than I could and I like that term so much better. Not that I can crank out words quite that fast. I wish.
It took me 4-5 episodes to get into Deadwood. Now I'm pissed it's almost over. The writing is incredible - if you can get over the nudity and swearing. It's like Shakespeare for the 21st Century. It's also wonderful because the bad guys aren't always bad and the good guys aren't always good. A nice slice of frontier reality.
enjoy~
steph in VA
The process. Mozart started composing at 5 ... the music poured out of him as easily as rain falls from the sky. Beethovan had to sweat for every note. I guess when it comes to intuitive versus plotter the ends justify whatever means the writer uses. Toe-may-to, ta-mah-to.
steph in VA said...
Deadwood. Now I'm pissed it's almost over. The writing is incredible - if you can get over the nudity and swearing.
Ooh. Nudity and swearing? Where do I sign up?
fcgcos (red)
Feeling crazy, glamourgeek changed one shoe.
Robin S said...
Zaza: Thank you. You have described the organic process so much better than I could and I like that term so much better. Not that I can crank out words quite that fast. I wish.
Well, I've given it a lot of thought. And I don't always write at that rate. ;+))) Just sometimes there's a whole lot of story waiting to be put "on paper." I think I probably write fast and coherently because so many of my jobs have been writing to deadlines. Some of that is definitely a learned skill.
fidqvq (blue)
First, I design quite vivid quotes.
Sometimes I think rewriting goes more slowly than my first draft because I'm paying attention to the rules. Like don't change POV everytime someone speaks. I hate that rule. I understand it but I hate it.
Zaza, that explains it. Writing to deadlines. Since I'm setting my own deadlines, it somehow doesn't have the same tension.
wow. just read about 130 or so long CB comments. here's my catch-up:
- dicussion about the plotter vs pantser was wonderful, and as soon as i get my brain to start working (there's no cool air and my butt hurts) i may be able to add to it. till then, enjoyed it immensly. must let it, now, as my teacher used to say, "marinate".
KyratheRed: back, back, back, into a few days ago, you said something about Transplant Olympic. what exactly is that? (i'm imagining people who had surgeries going and showing off their scars and how nicely they healed and winning medals for it). also, when you said "My academic career is on hiatus while I breed little cute humans as a hobby.", LMAO.
rg: thanks for the Aussie update.
JJ: CONGRATS on being a finalist! not sure anymore what it was a finalist of, but congrats. she said "I'll change the font, single space it, print it out. I even once printed a manuscript in landscape. It's amazing what you might pick up when you change "perspective"." i do that. i change fonts depending on what kind of story i'm telling, and sizes, and i'll read it in different ones, and all of that good stuff.
tal: i looked up Alice Roosevelt Longworth; she is fecking brilliant. love it. fave article i read on her: http://www.salon.com/people/feature/1999/06/07/longworth/
agtigress said "and the book is still in print after 14 years". what book?
BCB (& MCB): wonderful story about your grandma. my grandma would invite houseless people all the time back to the apartment for food and shelter and stuff. very dangerous, but then again, this is a woman that needed three cops to take her down. when she was 87.
kyra said "I think I'll write a book and call it Prostitution as a Hobby. Catchy title, no? It could be about flyfishing, but my goodness what a cover."
that would be a great book. well, great cover. you'd have to be the most fascinating writer alive to make fly-fishing interesting to me (and i already do like fishing). of course, Troon McAllister made golf interesting, and i have even less interest in that.
also, "Casey replied, deadpan, (he's a Taurus, everything is deadpan) "Well, I get off on it." your DH seems to be a GAM.
MCB: the ReaderWare sounds great for my new "job". i'm cataloguing this guy's books to sell on e-bay. of course, he still hasn't given me the books yet. and when i offered to pick them up? nothing.
welcome steph in VA.
ok, i have more posts and comments to catch up on. geez, leave for three days and you guys go crazy. and when i'm here? nothing!
ok, so one more post. but a lot of comments.
OH sez: you'd have to be the most fascinating writer alive to make fly-fishing interesting to me (and i already do like fishing).
LMAO: I was reading the new Economist yesterday at brunch and they reviewed a book on fly fishing (actually, on the history of the Bamboo Fly Rod. How's that for esoteric?) and gave it rave reviews! So your comment was quite timely.
FYI it's "Casting a Spell: the Bamboo Fly Rod and the American Pursuit of Perfection" by George Black, in case any cherrybombs have fly fishermen among their relations who need gifts and would love this.
I honestly can't think of a soul I know who would.
bvjjjcf: Be very jocular and jubilant, Jenny Crusie Fans!
OH wrote: very dangerous, but then again, this is a woman that needed three cops to take her down. when she was 87.
WTH!! She just disappears for days on end and then reappears with a comment like this and NO explanation? Ye're gettin' a mite big fer yer britches child. Get back over here and explain yourself. And your darlin' Grandma. She sounds like someone we could take to right quick.
Geez.
And I have to know: maternal or paternal. Because the irony is just too much if it's paternal. I love your family.
bw
paternal. of course paternal. she's a Brooklyn Jew who has spent the last 55 years in the projects. of course it would take three cops. (and how embarassing that they needed help against my sweet, little- she's almost five feet- granny).
anyways, some person snitched on my grandma that she wasn't taking care of herself (no groceries or medications, which isn't really true because the neighborhood boys normally help her; tough gangsters just smile and nod as they bring food up for my grandma). and i do appreciate the person for caring, but she obviously didn't know my grandma well. so cops (not sure why it was three of them, maybe they thought she baked *snort*) come in to investigate. my grandma (who yes, has a few marbles missing) gets very belligerent really fast, started to get annoyed. a cop went to calm her down and was kicked in the balls (yes, there) for his troubles. two other cops went to take control of her. third cop had to help.
and this is why i love my dad's family, but am planning on living on the west coast or another country.
sorry. thought this went through and had to do dishwasher and help dad with dinner. stupid blogger.
Oh God. I'm laughing so hard I have tears running down my face. I love your grandma. Do you think she'd adopt me?
I think MCB and I will have to drop by and visit for a spell on our way to wherever it is we're headed next. MCB has the map, I think. She will be a great asset in our TOTW plans and I'm sure will have some insightful advice on how to handle LaFavre (not like that, geez). Three cops? Then again, MCB is five-feet nothing as well. I'm sure they have stories they can share about law enforcement.
Would it be ok if I made some chicken soup and brought it to her? I'll put matzoh balls in it-- my specialty. And homemade challah braid.
bw
BCB: my whole dad's side of the family is filled with amazing chefs (both at-home and in restaurants), starting with her, so she appreciates amazing food. go for it. i mean, you may want to bring a can of mace and know a quick getaway, but go for it. just remember, you asked for it. because when you get my grandma, you get her daughters (and her son, but we try not to think of that). and her daughters' kids. and their kids. of course, you also get me.
and my college loans. :)
Orangehands: I always make you laugh. You can be my new best friend. I like to rotate and give everyone their chance with me. It's the least I can do ... spread around the fabulous.
Your grandma sounds like a stone cold riot. And I think getting kicked in the Nads by a Jewish granny will give that cop something to talk about at parties forever, so he owes her. Matzoh balls: what cops get when a granny kicks 'em in the crotch.
My granny once hit a bear in the head with a rock to scare it off. Does that count as tough? Kentucky tough baby!
A book on baboo rods? and yet some of the funniest people I've ever read aren't published yet? WTF?
Which reminds me. A blog I like sells WTFWJD shirts. She's an Episcopal church secretary. Gotta love it. She also has a collection of bad angel crap (you know the resin shite you get a truckstops) that is called Angels We Have Heard Are High. It includes the Angel of Cameltoe.
OH - Love your grandma! Everyone should have at least one person like that in their family to give it character.
BCB - in my dreams am I 5 feet nothing. It used to bother me because no one took me seriously. Then I realized that no one taking you seriously means you can get away with a whole lot more.
Scope Dope: Hope you are having a better day. {{HUGS}}
naeghcke: fake ozark leather
For those still visiting this post (whether you care anymore or not) the chapter I received that I thought was a "galley" is actually "page proofs". Now, where that is in the process of publishing, and whether Bob would still hate it, I have no idea.
kyra said "Orangehands: I always make you laugh. You can be my new best friend. I like to rotate and give everyone their chance with me. It's the least I can do ... spread around the fabulous."
LMAO. you're too kind.
MCB said "OH - Love your grandma! Everyone should have at least one person like that in their family to give it character."
uh, actually, that's my grandma, all her kids, and most of their kids. the next generation seems to be losing the spark. thank god my brother and i are their age and are here to remind them. (my cousins are in there mid-30's to 50's on my dad's side, so it's their kids i'm close in age to. still like my cousins better though. much more entertaining.) of course, on my mom's side i have ONE cousin and he's 30. a joke which never gets old.
HMPH!!!!
So, Miss OrangeHands (if that's your real name), your story is that it's a joke being 30? Or being a cousin? Or being on your mother's side? (And how is your mother's side?)
Yeah. Right. What it sounds like to me is pure unadulterated Ageism, young lady. Yes, clear evidence of your having fallen victim to the Pete Townsend "Never trust anyone (at or over) 30" syndrome. Might I remind you, missy, of the current age of Mr. Townsend????
mary: :)
nah, i like people over thirty, it's just my cousin thought he'd be young forever. it's been a running joke for ten years that he's almost thirty. even my mom's in on it.
mom's side: it's a much smaller, a whole hell lot scarier version of my dad's. dad's is crazy and loud. mom's are either very nice (my great-uncle's tiny- about six people- branch and my cousin) or very mean (the rest of them...you know, all seven, including the steps).
but i love you old people! (couldn't help it. besides, mostly age is in the mind- my NY grandma was in her mid-80's for almost fifteen years.)
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