Warning: Some Violence and Much Strong Language.HE WROTE: On Publishing And Critiquing.
I’ve done several critiques recently of cover letters, synopses, and excerpts of manuscripts. I’ve also critiqued my own CHASING THE DEAD and had it critiqued by my primary reader. First thing about critiques: you’ve got to be willing to accept feedback. CHASING was written originally over twelve years ago. So some of the writing is, uh, old? And not very good. It was also written in first person and now is in third person. What I’ve learned in changing from first to third is you initially go to third omniscient, not third limited. Lots of info-dump. Lots of over-view. Which has to be cut. So when my reader came in and said: “Love the character, love the plot, but the book is un-sellable as is” I had to do some serious re-evaluating of what I had. And I realized that I had to re-write those old scenes that were over-views. Make them sharper, more third limited, than third omniscient, put conflict in them, and cut a lot of the info-dump. I had to punch up a supporting character, cut a lot of ‘thinking’ and add more dialogue. Basically, the hardest thing I had to do, was do all the things I pontificate about when I teach, and apply them in my own manuscript.
In doing my submission critiques for other people, I constantly get asked: what are agents and editors looking for? How do you stand out, how does a new writer get published? Well, they’re looking for the same things readers are looking for: interesting and intriguing characters in interesting and intriguing situations. I just finished the second season of DEADWOOD and really enjoyed watching it. Why? The same reason. The characters had depth to them. They weren’t one-sided. The ‘hero’ had a flaw. The ‘bad guy’ had a soft spot. There was love, brutality, intrigue, double-crosses, manipulations, surprises, but most of all: conflict. The setting was unique: a town with no law. Every character thought the story was about them. People make mistakes. No one’s perfect.
What I recommend doing is watching movies or TV series on DVD and listening to the commentaries. I think most people will be shocked at the amount of discussion and detail that goes into every little thing. How writers and directors and actors all focus on little details and what they mean and most of all they focus on the emotional effect.
It’s the same when watching INSIDE THE ACTOR’S STUDIO. Where you learn how there was a large degree of luck involved, but also the years and years of hard work involved.
I’ve got all the emails of Jenny’s ‘patterns’ printed out and am pulling pieces and parts from them and trying to fit them into a linear outline for Acts Three and Four of AGNES. Along with notes for what I have to rewrite for Acts One and Two. Jenny also just emailed me how she would like the climactic scene of the book to go. Considering I’m still outlining Act Three that’s very nice of her. I told her I would have my part of the entire book done by 9 September. We shall see.
169 Comments:
Hi Bob - thanks for the blog!
Speaking as a reader, I can really enjoy a book done in as you say third omniscient. If I get a good feel for the characters and the plot pulls me in it can work. BUT, dialogue is what really puts me in the scene and turns me from being a reader to being an audience. Its a more intimate connection. It makes the difference between enjoying the book and reliving the scenes in my head long after I've finished reading it. It feels sharper and seems to pick the pace up as well.
Love Inside the Actors Studio!
"First thing about critiques: you’ve got to be willing to accept feedback"
Truer words ....
It is hard to accept critique when you slave over a project, your baby so to speak. If you aren't at a place where you can accept the feedback, what a waste of everyone's time. I find it interesting, and very telling, that you made it clear you were discussing critique and not "constructive criticism" (an oxymoron). There is a big difference between the two for both parties.
I reckon accepting criticism is probably one of the hardest things to do as a writer. But if you can get past it and it makes the book better.... thats magic.
I'm looking at 3 pages of "suggestions" from my ed at the moment and after grumbling I started to look at it. I began the rewrites today and already I can tell the story is stronger.
Still...I wish I could get it right first time round more often.
jagfh - jpy and gratitude for HEA
Very timely post Bob. I'm about to send my ms out into the world and want the package to be the best it can be. Contsructive criticism is crucial as is your ability to distance yourself from it emotionally.
I was having a discussion yesterday abotu pseudonyms. You've had several. Why use them? Why decide to go with your real name for the collaboration? I'm trying to decide whether I should use one or not.
Glad to see you here, Bob : ) All the cake talk was piling the pounds on as I read. You would think the body count would negate that but no.
cmsheryl: I think I read that he, and other writers, uses pen names so he can write in different genres and not confuse readers. Readers come to expect a certain thing from a certain author, and if that author suddenly goes from, say, contemporary romance to futuristic detective (Nora Roberts/JD Robb) it may confuse and possibly turn off readers.
I think.
I've always liked third/omniscient myself. For some reason I have a hard time getting into first-person books, both writing them and reading them.
and I'm always looking for a good critiquer. I get upset when I think they don't actually rip it apart enough. I expect my manuscripts to be bloody when i get them back (and not just from body count).
Thanks Bob, I always enjoy your insights. It helps that I'm racing though the first season of Deadwood now too.
I read a Regency Romance recently. A RITA finalist. It had some clever scenes in it, but the characters were not complex. The author would've hit the ball out of the park if she'd not had such predictable characters.
Hard work and luck. If only we had more control over the luck.
Always good to be reminded of these things.
thanks, Peggy
This post is very interesting to me on two levels. One, the whole DVD thing and Television. I'm not a huge fan of TV, don't watch it much. DH is a huge fan of sports (I do watch) and Movies, which I will usually fall alseep since we have that whole entertainment thingy in our bedroom, so I'm like in bed, so I like sleep... Anyway, every sucessful writer I know tells me the same thing "WATCH DVD'S WITH COMENTARIES and MOVIES." Okay, I get it. So now I'm watching the first three seasons of MOONLIGHTING and MIAMI VICE starting tonight. Loved those shows when they were on, so I supposed I'd like them again. Besides, MOONLIGHTING is really a great love story until the idiots ruined it and the final episode was pretty stupid... but I'm rambling again.
The second level of this post I find a tad bit humerous. Critiques are interesting. I when I give someone something to read I want an honest reaction. If you hate it, I want to know, but more importantly, I want to know why.
I had the honor of Bob critiqueing one of my manuscripts. When I had orginally got the critique, I couldn't decided on which manuscript to send him, the one that had won a few contests, that I knew was good, or the one that I was struggling with, had set aside because something wasn't working. A friend said to me, "What do you want? A pat on the back or good feedback?" I laughed, i hate pats on the back. Besides, that's for my husband, kids and mother who are my cheerleaders. So, I sent him the crappy one. Okay, it's not totally crappy, but I knew deep down that while the idea was okay, the story is there, something was dreadfully wrong.
Now on to Bob - who is amazing, a GAM, (shhh, we don't want it to go to his head). Anyway, amazed because I got my critique quckly, and it was very detailed. Lots of good stuff and well, he had negative things to say. THANK YOU BOB! I've always hated when people sugar coat things. Anyway, one of the first things he said to me was that my hero was kind of stupid up front. He said a few other things about my poor hero. I sat back and said outloud "Shit, he's right." I studied his critique, good and bad (and there were a few things I disagreed on and kept as is. Hey, it's my story). My point is this, you have to weed through what someone says and not take any of it personally. I shared this critique with a friend and she said, "Geez, this guy is tough." I said, "No, he's honest."
I no longer look at my manuscripts as my babies. Yes, I'm attached to them, the characters, the stories and they really become a part of my daily life, but not the same way my children are. Say a bad thing about my kids, touch them, and watch out. But feel free to give an honest assesment of my work.
With all of that said, I've had people rip my work apart just because they can. That's not good. You do have to be careful of who you ask. Early in my writing I had someone read my stuff and they came back with they couldn't get through the first few pages because it was so bad. That's not helpful. And, the story wasn't bad, just the writing, which can be fixed.
Okay, I'm done.
I have a hard time with critiques, especially if I really like the people. I find myself looking for nice things to say, when that's not really the point, is it? I mean, I don't want to be MEAN, you know?
As for my stuff, we talked about this last night at dinner. I think we might have bored my Shane to tears when we started talking shop. Bryan was a gem, really. He looks like Regis, but better, and I *hear* he's a very good kisser. Just sayin...
Anyhow, when I'm writing, I have a very hard time telling people about my stories. I feel like if I start telling them, they're not MINE anymore. I think this is because most people usually want to tell me what ELSE I should add, or their ideas for how things should happen next. It's one thing to do a collective story, like on here with Rene, and have everybody add their own stuff to it, and it's fun. It's quite another when I'm trying to get the person screaming in my head out onto my computer screen, and *I* know what she's saying and where she's going, and WHO SHE IS, then someone tries to tell me, after hearing about her for maybe 3 minutes, what she should do next. I mean, if they're that sure they know, then they should WRITE THEIR OWN DAMN BOOK!!
Sorry, it's just so frustrating for me sometimes. I mean, as soon as people hear that I write (if you can really call what I do 'writing' these days) they are so sure that they know just what my story needs to make it REALLY BIG. They don't seem to understand that I write because I HAVE TO WRITE TO STAY SANE, not because I want a huge publishing deal, or to be on the NYT list, or do a book tour, or something.
Geez, I've ranted, and just realized that I should really do that over on my own blog, since I haven't posted something new over there in week.
I had a WONDERFUL time last night with Bryan and mcb. He couldn't get your calls in the basement of the ESPNZone, but he got voicemails. He was really nice, and didn't laugh to much when mcb and I squealed when we saw each other. I have to tell you, I *really* love mcb!! Bryan showed us his pics (TOTALLY amazing!) and we even got to read some of his Gabby story. I would LOVE to be able to critique that one. It's really good so far, and I enjoyed it. I want to critique it because I'd love the chance to read it before it goes to print and I have to pay for it. Yeah, I'd buy it. He's a CB, of course I'd buy it. Plus, it really was pretty good.
Anyhow, this is turning into a novel. When I started, there were only 5 posts. I wonder how many others have been on and posted since i started this ramble?
First thing about critiques: you’ve got to be willing to accept feedback
Ohhhh yes. This is a difficult area because so many people hear a critique suggestion and internalize it as, "She thinks I suck." Most often, that's not the case at all.
I volunteer as a judge in a few RWA chapter conferences because, prior to getting published, I entered several contests. I think it's important to 'pay it forward' when other authors gave their time and expertise to me in the past. I go out of my way to find positive aspects in every entry. When there are other areas that need improvement, I go out of my way to be tactful in the suggestions.
Overall, I'm most comfortable staying within my critique group. No blood is shed and no poison slipped in each other's drinks in retaliation. *g*
foruunt: Forgiving other readers ultimately unites newer tries.
Dee - when people come to me and ask me to crit their stuff I make sure they understand that I am honest and if it's not working for me, I will tell them and I will tell them why. With that said, I'm not mean about it.
I know what you mean about people telling you what to add. I actually consider myself a decent plotter. I'm confident that I can come up with a good story, not always confident on how that story ends up on paper. I don't talk to non-writers about my stories anymore, with the exception of my husband and two close friends who understand on a different level. My husband is funny, because he doesn't get it, at all. He just sits there, nods his head and smiles then says he loves me, gives me a little kiss and walks away shaking his head. Then again, I don't get what he does for a living. He sells motors? Small gear motors in the heating and cooling industry? Not sure what that means.
Dee - loved your ramble - so glad you had a nice time with my Twin Bryan, since he looks like Regis.
Did you realize that Jen-T finally made it to the New York Times? If you can't believe it, check this link:
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/08/24/fashion/thursdaystyles/24laptop.html?th&emc=th
I also tried the personaldna.com test which was posted in the JCF forum. It's not only interesting to do (and way faster than the 30 minutes they tell you it will take) but it also occurred to me that there are a lot of questions one could answer from the POV of one's novel characters to determine which way they are thinking. I think I'll try it with one who is so unlike me that it gives me a hard time to figure out how she might react in certain situations. So, off I go.
CG - Ha! Funny article. Except, as you all know, our bed is not sacred. He brings his crackberry as often as I bring the laptop. But honestly, I don't do it when he's home, that much. The clicking of my fingernails drives him nuts.
Now off to check out personaldna.com thing. Thanks, like I'm supposed be writing an anthology here, due by Monday!
I've been thinking a lot about how viewpoint affects character lately, so this post was right on target for me.
I love watching Inside the Actor's Studio, because I see it as a show about story telling. Speaking of which, you should check out the documentary The Cutting Edge: the Magic of Movie Editing (2004). I saw it recently on cable and listening to the editors talking about using shots to build a scene was insightful. I was really awed by their ability to take a glance from one take and edit into the story as something profoundly revealing of character. Really, see it, listen to Walter Murch walk thru a character's thoughts in a scene as he cuts that meaning into the movie with shots (no dialogue). Amazing.
D-U-G said: I wish I could get it right first time round more often.
But...but, see, it's not a matter necessarily of right & wrong. It's more not-so-good, better, fabulous. And useful critiques will help you move your writing up that quality ladder.
I gave my first-ever editing/critiquing workshop to a group of (mostly beginning)writers last Saturday & the point they seemed to value the most was the one about baggage. That is, we all have baggage (life experience) that colors how we interpret what we read/hear/see. So the feedback from someone may be more about THEM than about your writing. Keep that in mind when choosing a crit partner & processing what they give you back.
>steps away from lecture podium<
And a good crit partner is worth their weight in dark chocolate.
CGWWIH: Critique gods work well in here.
Well Bob, I guess you're at the stage of, "He who teaches learns." *grin* As you know, (I've told you often enough)I got so much out of your four day retreat. I was tempted to send my new baby for you to critique but I so love this one, if you hated it, I'd probably have to kill myself. But that could be good, up would go the CB body count ... one less person making comments. *grin*
Last night I critiqued a friends manuscript (it's due to the editor by October) and realised she had a perfect grey moment (a lead up to the big black moment) of internal conflict which she hadn't utilized. I procrastinated a bit (hell i'm a Libra it's what we do best)on whether or not to say anything, it's her story, but I knew it would make the entire story stronger.
Finally did and sent it off last night around midnight. She responded this morning amazed, thrilled to bits, she totally got what I was saying and is going ahead with the advice. I guess critiquing is all about the delivery of the good and bad news, I love doing it and think I make a better editor than writer. How come I can see everyone else's work so clearly and muddle through my own?
rg
xwciszr I fell of my xwciszr again
Just as dialogue is what puts mcb into a book, dialogue is what hooked me on DEADWOOD. The Shakespearean turns of phrase, distinctive speech patterns for each character, and rich vocabulary-- beyond all those many-syllabled, consonant-laden cusswords--force me to keep my ears wide open, even when the throat-slitting and blood-spattering make me close my eyes.
Jen mentioned ... I no longer look at my manuscripts as my babies.
So funny you should say that today because Dee was talking about that exact thing last night ... she looks at her writing the same way she does her kids.
Critiquing: When I blithely offerred to assist a few CBs I thought I knew what I was doing. As I started to read the stories I quickly realized this was going to be harder than I thought. I'm not a writer (no, Scope, the road trip is not going to get published) but I need to read like I need to breathe. If I have to choose, it will be reading. So I figure I have some experience there in what works and what doesn't.
The hard part is respecting that its not your story. You can't jump in and tell the other person what to write. You have to analyze what works and what doesn't and help them to write it better but it has to be their words on the paper. And that's hard for me because I am a fixer by nature.
We sat there last night, Dee and I chattering like demented magpies and I had to laugh because as I told Bryan, I had only met her once before for like 5 minutes but here we were as comfortable as if we had a lifetime friendship. I've said it before but it can't be said enough - she's a DOLL! Those of you coming to NJ are in for a treat! Be sure to ask her about the bucket o' margaritas.
As Dee said Bryan showed us some of his photos and let us read some scenes he had written and both were *very* impressive. But dang the pages were only excerpts! That's just a tease!
Oh, and yeah a bit like Regis. Not obvious at first, IMO, but then I think the eyes and some expressions. Regis, but maybe older. As to what Dee *heard*, I have know idea what transpired before Shane and I joined them.
Kyra? How's your friend doing?
Jenny Crusie xcellently (k)nits gripping scenes.
Life baggage is interesting. I grew up in a very "interesting" household to say the least. I supose being called ding bat number 2 might have something to do with my thick skin, or being the youngest and always having to fight to be heard, or being dyslexic or whatever. I know all of those things drive me, but the key word is driven. Yeah, I'm driving my family insane. When i want something, I go for it, both barrels loaded.
redks - reading edits doing kicks
tcpzl - tiger calls peter, zulu lost
Sorry, I'm back again.
If anyone wants to take an international survey on the state of romance for Harlequin Mills and Boons 2007 report:
http://www.surveymonkey.com/s.asp?u=498022418384
It's cute. Takes a couple of moments. Complete anonymity. I did it. *grin* I'm a complete romantic.
rg
wikacrz
Wiccan curse
Yay! new bob blog!
.... obviously I survived the wedding, despite the number of sloshed guests and a lot of free grog. It's taken me 5 days to recover, lol.
Lynn said:"...critique and not 'constructive criticism' (an oxymoron)."
ENLIGHTEN ME, PLEASE. I think of them as synonymous. Obviously you all don't. I seem about to involve myself in helping out with someone's work (none of you all), and now you're telling me constructive criticism ain't critique. ENLIGHTEN ME, PLEASE.
bimzkar: But In My Zenith Kant Argues Realistically.
Every once in a while I get a call from my father asking for advice (we've worked together a number of times, so we have both personal and professional relationships). He's well known in the community for which he writes and he does a lot of book reviews. He's got a reputation for being honest about what he does and does not like.
Yesterday he said he'd read an old friend's (non-fiction) book, as promised, and that he thought it was well-written, but totally disagreed with the premise. Once again, I gave him the advice I always give him. People ask him because they know he will be honest with them. Because he won't give them a critique that is "oh, it's all so lovely" which helps the author not at all. I told him to go ahead and tell our family friend that if you accept the premise, it's a good, well-thought-out, interesting book. But that the premise doesn't work for him. And finally that THAT IS WHY OUR FRIEND ASKED HIM TO READ IT. After 20 years, that friend knows what he's asking for when he asks for a critique.
I say the same thing about his book reviews. His readers count on him to say when something is excellent and when something is awful and if he starts being less than honest, his readers will find another reviewer who will give them a decent appraisal. He's not mean (usually, unless an author has obviously not given credit to those who deserve it), but he does say things like "this book is historically inaccurate and here are examples of how." And, as my father said, all critiques are subjective, which is why there is more than one book reviewer on the planet.
So critique: not always easy for either reader or writer, but honesty presented with kindness and civility is essential to the health of the work itself and a boon to future readers.
Oooooh. It's really high up here on this soapbox. Could someone help me down, please? :)
In my humble opinion constructive critism is the way we handle in our minds critism. We will view a negative comment as cronstructive when it's not hurtful or when it makes sense to us. We might look at it is not so constructive when we either disagree with the statement or when we find it hurtful.
Now, remember this when critiqing someone's work, or having your own done. There is a fair amount of subjectivity involved. When I judge contests, I try and leave my personal likes and dislikes out of the equation and focus on the writing and the story. I am probably going to get "lamb blasted" for this one, but I am not a huge fan of "chick-lit" or the chick lit tone. It's not a first person thing, because I love TELL NO ONE, by Harlon Coban, and it's first person. Same thing with UP COUNTRY by Nelson DeMille, but it's a story line. Obviously, I like mystery, thriller, military plots, to name a few. But, my CP writes Romantic Comedy in first person with that snarky edge. And she's very good at it. I can give her feedback on storyline, characters and writing in general, but I wouldn't normally pick that up from the shelf. Am I making any sense here?
I have very strong opinions about this topic. I'll use Bob's crit of my work again as an example. The MS I sent him the hero is a military guy and well, I got most of that wrong. Go figure, and I even have a brother in the Navy, but when I told my brother about he hero, he laughed his ass off, because again, I'd gotten it all wrong. I fixed that part, but there was one thing that Bob said about about the story that I firmly disagreed on. I left that part the same, well sort of. I made it better, but stuck with my orginal idea, sort of. Okay, so I changed it a little, but you get what I'm saying. This is the same MS that recently finaled in a contest.
Okay, contests. Take with a grain of salt. I enter them and I do get some great feedback, but weed through the good, the bad and the ugly. I once got contest results back where one judge gave me a 94 out of 100 and another judge gave me a 32. Figure that one out. I had a third judge who gave me a 78. Very subjective. What I found interesting, is that I did get the most out of the judge who gave me the lowest score. She/he really got me thinking and while I disagreed with much of what he/she said, I was able to put my thoughts to good use and make that manuscript stronger. FYI, that's the one coming out in next June.
Jen: You make a good point about being subjective. If you don't like the chick-lit genre you go into it with a bias. That's natural. But I don't think its necessarily a bad thing. In some ways it could help you be objective perhaps. You aren't vested in the genre so you can analyze specifics if you see what I mean.
Gatorperson: I can't promise to be enlightening, especially since I just got back from a campus-wide faculty luncheon complete with cake! But since a professor told me I have a lucky aura today (I found the big book he needed for class), here is my two cents worth ...
First, you are right. Critique and criticism are synonomous. I find them distinctly different because to me criticism implies something is wrong; it isn't often we criticize someone in a good way. I look at critique more along the lines of an analysis, trying to make something better.
It might be a Knee-jerk throw back to 100 years ago when I was doing undergrad work and we discussed constructive criticism in various education classes. I always thought feedback was a better word all around. Keep telling a child they are wrong and soon enough they quit coming up with original ideas.
Guess it's just semantics, a you say tomato kind of thing. Either way, you have to be in the right place/frame of mind, to accept/ make needed changes. It also helps to have respect for the person providing the feedback.
Hope that made some sense.
Someone asked for the difference between constructive criticism and a critique.
My answer -- not much. *g* I think a lot of people automatically assign negativity to the word criticism. If someone spots something wrong with my writing and offers me a positive suggestion for improvement, then that's constructive criticism. If someone, however, just rips the work up one side, down the other, backwards and sideways -- that's annihilation and there's nothing constructive or positive to be found.
A thorough critique, to my mind, points out good points and bad points in the writing.
That's constructive, to me.
"I would have my part of the entire book done by 9 September"
*squeals* ok, just had to get that out of my way.
constructive c vs criticism: it means offering a solution/suggestion rather than just ripping into it. though someone by now has probably answered this with more detail.
pov:
i once read this book in 2nd person called Damage by AM Jenkins. it was about male depression (which is great because how often is that topic discussed?), and the fact it was in 2nd made the story for me. if it was in 1st or 3rd, it would have been good, yeah, but that it was in 2nd made it an excellent book.
but, a few weeks after reading it, i read this review that said they loved the book but wished it wasn't in 2nd. i was coming from the place that depressed people feel one step removed, which is how she made 2nd pov sound (seriously, read this book just to see a different way of writing), and the other reviewer was coming from the place that she thought it didn't flow right. we both had two very different interpretations. again, back to the baggage we carry. i come from a place where i know about depression through a close family member and she's coming from a "reading" stand point.
CG: LMAO.
anyways, interesting discussion so far.
oh, and those DVD commentary things are eye-opening. (so was film class, but for different reasons). i love West Wing, and got three seasons on DVD. in one of the episodes (for those who watch, Two Cathedrals, 2nd season finale), they have flashbacks and have a young man playing the future president. well, Martin Sheen has this way of putting on a jacket because of a disease he had when he was a kid, and the young man put on his jacket that way too. did i really notice him do so before the commentary? no. but would i have found the kid to be as great as he was? no. didn't consciously pick it up, but subconsciouslysomething would have said "oh, that's a little off".
where am i going with this? not sure. maybe the details. details, i believe, do matter. (though even after four years of "study how the 'a' is placed there instead of a 'the' to show the singular belief in the line and yada yada ya" is still BS to me.) but readers can pick things up, even if it's just subconsciously.
this was way too much thinking before wake-up time. so sorry if none of it made sense.
Now I feel bad. A fellow grad student presented his thesis at the Grad WiP at school. Afterwards, he asked me what I thought. I said it was good, he just needed to speak louder during his presentation. What I really thought was that his conclusions were based on scant evidence and he needed further material evidence to support his claims. But how do I make something like that constructive? Of course, this was academic stuff, so maybe that makes a difference somehow, but all I thought at the time was that I didn't want to hurt his feelings. Now I feel like I have done him a huge disservice.
Christina: someone will have said something. Probably one of the professors. Do not feel guilty.
But in the future something along the lines of, "You have a really interesting thesis, but I'm not sure that the academic community will agree with your conclusions at this point. Is there any way you can get more material evidence to support your claims so that your arguments are stronger?" might work. See, you've started with something positive, then asked if there's a way he can more effectively defend himself against attackers, of which there are always many in academia, and shown some solidarity with him as a fellow grad student whose ideas will be challenged by others.
Yes, I'm in marketing. I can spin this stuff in my sleep. :)
Cherry Magic Sheryl said...
I was having a discussion yesterday abotu pseudonyms. You've had several. Why use them? Why decide to go with your real name for the collaboration? I'm trying to decide whether I should use one or not.
I love names, and I love having new names for new things. My design stuff is under one name, my editing and coaching under another, my chicklit/romance/cozies another, vamp stuff yet another. That's just me, and a lot of people recommend against that, because it reduces the likelihood of readers moving from one genre to another of your writing because the names are totally different. I think it may be the artist in me - is there one name that fits with all the things I do? I've never thought so. ;+)
Dee said...
I have a very hard time telling people about my stories...because most people usually want to tell me what ELSE I should add, or their ideas for how things should happen next.
I developed an editing course for one of my employers when I was working as a course developer. I wanted to call it, "How Not to Edit," but they wouldn't let me. /;+) Because, really, most people know how to find "mistakes," but few people can tell a "mistake" from an instance of "not how I'd write it." It's hard not to make suggestions when you're editing or critiquing, but you need to remember that you're not the author and couch your suggestion in such a way that the author knows it is a suggestion, rather than a correction.
mcb said...
that Dee said Bryan looks like "Regis, but maybe older."
WTH? Regis is like 80 years old, fer gawd's sake. Are you telling us Bryan looks like a 90-year old??? I mean, he said he was 42. Have you had a hard life Bryan?
aaokywkw (blue)
All angels offer kisses (to) yield well kissed women.
zaza asked ... Regis is like 80 years old, fer gawd's sake. Are you telling us Bryan looks like a 90-year old???
No, LOL, no no. But I don't think Bryan gets regular facials or has a personal trainer.
Thank you Bob/GAM,
I took notes. Guess I must be ready for another conference. Have been in a holding pattern with some revisions and Bob's thoughts/suggestions/prompts/reflections got me thinking again.
Linear thinking/outline. Does that necessarily mean chronological order? I'm finding that I start with chronological and then play with it some.
Zaza: actually, Bryan implied he was over 100. Jen-T used subtle sleuthing to expose him as being in his early 40s. Which is younger than Regis, but, remember, most of us don't have the advantage of professional makeup and skincare. There are 60-year-old actresses that look younger than I (damn it). I had NO IDEA Regis was so old - Wikipedia says he's 75 tomorrow (bday 8/25/31).
you guys, Regis is old. and his voice can be annoying. and he tells horrible jokes.
be nicer to Bryan. i'm sure there are other old guys he can look like instead.
apparently, Regis is going to be in Shrek 3 as the voice of Mabel.
and did you know Larry King plays Doris, the ugly stepsister?
love the Shrek movies.
Glamour-Geek said:
See, you've started with something positive, then asked if there's a way he can more effectively defend himself against attackers
I agree. I use the compliment sandwich when I have to make a point that could seem hurtful. You say something positive, or give a compliment, then the filling is the stuff that might hurt or be sensitive, then close with something positive. It's nicer, gentler and still gets the point across.
As a critiquer you have to shelve your ego. You have to be totally objective. Most critiques that are from non-professionals (newbie writers, readers as opposed to editors) in my opinion are subjective. The person can't seperate away from their own thoughts on writing to look at the piece of work with a clear vision.
It's not your story. Your job should be only to look at the strengths and weaknesses not tell someone how to write. You ask yourself questions like "does the story hold up" "is it believable" "are the characters well-drawn, multi-dimensional" "is there enough plot to sustain an entire manuscript" "is there a good balance between romance and suspense" "are all of the threads tied up/all issues resolved" and so on.
Someone mentioned about contests and a wide disparity in scores, this happens a lot because judges are not trained well enough. Some contests can be harmful, but you get what you pay for. IMHO most newbie writers would be better off polishing their work until it glows and then sending it to a professional for advice than to enter contests judged by their peers. But, that costs big bucks.
Critique partners can be good, but there can also be incorrect advice given. Any advice you're given has to resonate with you, the writer, if it doesn't just toss it out.
rg
muqueuho Mu que u ho, get to the end of the line
RobinS, I left a response to your question on the last post.
And ScopeDope, I also left an extra tidbit on Mardi Gras for you there.
I'm never sure when people stop checking old posts.
On Regis/Bryan - I don't think most people realize how old Regis is, but still. So, Bryan isn't a metrosexual, huh? Good to know, with all the corset talk. Poor Bryan. Fortunately, I think he said he wasn't going to go back and try to catch up on the comments when he returns. But just in case, we loves you, Baby!
xqyulf (blue)
Xavier quietly yodeled under LuLu's fenetre. Sorry, I don't know how to do diacritical marks in Blogger.
Zaza: let me point you to the URL someone gave me when I asked (on this very blog, probably in Jan. or Feb.). Because this is an educational blog. Foreign characters in html are incorporated into the word without spaces: introduce the character with an &, then the letter, then an abbreviation of the diacritical mark (e.g. circ for circumflex), then closed with a semicolon. For example (I'm putting in spaces so you can see, I hope) fen& e circ;tre, for the example you used. To capitalize, just capitalize the letter.
yzrari: an even rarer, more expensive sports car
Christina - I find that there are many different levels on which it may be relevant to give feedback for an academic talk. If it's a practice talk, say for a later talk at a conference, then giving feedback about the presentation itself is important. Is the material presented in a clear manner so that the research and results are effectly conveyed? If there are things that a person can do to improve the presentation, e.g., speaking up, then this can be helpful.
Asking thoughtful questions about the research is also useful, both for you and for the presenter. I've had to learn to think critically when I'm listening to a talk, rather than sitting like a bump on a log, and thinking of questions keeps my mind engaged. And if you are planning to continue in academia down the road, this (thinking of the tough questions) is definitely something that you will have to do with your students. Also, practice answering tough questions is good for the presenter.
(Note, there is a difference between a tough question and a mean question.)
If the presenter is seeking feedback on his or her research thus far, and you have feedback to give, then go for it. What GG and someone else said though about starting with the positives, I agree with, and as GG said, no need to feel guilty. If the thesis presentation was to get this kind of feedback, then yes, some professors should have pointed out the weaknesses in his research. It's part of their job.
And with all sorts of critiquing, a lot comes through in how you say something.
And I must admit that I've had to toughen up since I've been in grad school. (After one of my first practice talks, I was in tears.)
Academia. Not for whimps.
(Geez, not sure where all this came from.)
RG made a good point about contests and the lack of quality judging, but that doesn't mean you can't learn from them and they are not worth the 25 - 50 dollars that it might cost you. When it comes down to deciding on a contest, I always look at who is the final judge. Is it someone I want to get my book in front of. Also, what am I looking for? Feedback? Intital reaction from someone doesn't know me? Or to final? Who are the judges? My peers? PRO's? Published Authors? What does this contest mean to me? If I can't answer these questions in a manor which suits me, I don't enter that contest.
I think the biggest mistake new writers make with contests is taking the feedback as gospel. As a writer, you have to decide what works for your story, and stick to it. For those of you who know me on a personal level, know my tag before selling had always been, "that's my story and I'm sticking to it." That's because I'm not going to change my story because someone said I should.
Hey MCB and BCB Where are you? I saw the biplane fly over and land at the airport in Niagara on the Lake several hours ago. I rushed home to make steak and salad for everyone at Scope Dope's again.
Writing is so internal and emotional. We're hacking into our psyches to put this stuff on the page. And until you've managed to step back from it, and put some distance between you and the emotion, you can't do the best job of editing. Writing is deeply personal and subjective, editing is impersonal and objective. Sometimes making that shift between the two is harder than other times. That's why I like to walk away from one project after the first draft and work on aspects of the next before I go back to edit.
I love talking craft. I can't wait for New Jersey to have these discussions in person. Unless the biplane really was you. In which case, I'm off to the liquor store for supplies. : )
BCB: do you have a way I can reach you via email directly? Are you on cherryforums? If you are, could you send me a message (I'm emily over there) so I can email you? Many thanks!
We now return you to your regularly scheduled discussion of dead bodies, cakes, and writing craft.
coptkibx: a very religious Egyptian bird.
Diane said...
Zaza: let me point you to the URL someone gave me when I asked (on this very blog, probably in Jan. or Feb.). Because this is an educational blog. Foreign characters in html...
Thanks, Diane. I probably knew that but, being a lazy woman, I didn't make the effort. Having a link, which I have bookmarked will maybe give my abition a boost the next time.
In talking about the difference between critiques and criticism, well, they shouldn't be different. But "criticism" has such negative connotations.
Critiquing and editing come in at different times along the writing timeline. Critiquing, informally anyway, can happen anywhere as you work on your book. But editing, even copy editing (especially?) needs to wait until you're failry happy with your plot and you draft is finished.
You can self-edit for typos, grammar and diction as you write and review, but a paid edit isn't worth the money if the ms isn't pretty well set. Doesn't mean your (publishing company) editor won't want changes /;+), but if you're paying for an edit, wait until you think you've got it licked. Remember, editors get paid for their time. They may quote you a per page price, but they're basing that on how long they thing a page of your ms will take them to process.
Stepping down from the podium, now. ;+)
icpfnw (blue)
If cats purr feelingly, no worries.
Dear Bob please tell me what third limited and third omniscient is. I don't think I have ever heard of them.
orangehands my little critque partner, I love you and lori and mcb you have been great so far. I haven't wanted to kill any of you once. /,D You have all been a big help.
green ybhonxal
Yo Bob, have ordinary news. Xavier arrives late.
SDCB - Third person limited and thrid person omniscient are easly confused and I'm not sure I will be able to explain them, but I will try.
Thrid Person Limited is when you are in one person's head during the scene. The reader is there with them and can only see what that character sees. So, if someone is hiding, but the character's who POV we are in doesn't know it, then the reader can't know it, make sense?
Thrid person omniscient is when the camera, or view point is (using Bob's words) pulled back in order to show the reader a bigger view of the scene. So in this case, the reader might know that someone is hiding, but the character doesn't. Make sense?
Diane: Thank you SO much for that link to HTML stuff. I've bookmarked it, too, and if I'm ever tempted to use it I hope someone will just shoot me and get it over with. I'd mess it up and probably destroy the blog. I think it's really cool that you can do that, but patience is not my strong suit.
Neither is tact, so I really hesitate to critique anything written by anyone, for any reason. I CAN be tactful, nice even, but it is sometimes a huge effort to do so while still being honest. And yes, Jen, I will get to those chapters you sent...
I grew up having every word I wrote and spoke edited (father: English teacher) so I guess I've developed a pretty thick skin about "criticism." When I started writing newspaper columns (I was horrible at first, BTW) I got a lot of editorial feedback and encouragement from a good friend/mentor who was an experienced newspaper writer. She was brutal, but impersonal. I was extremely appreciative. Because her advice came from experience. As much as it sometimes "hurt" (my ego, not my feelings) it was invaluable and a great learning experience.
That being said, I agree with Jen (and we talked about this last night) that if someone sets out to deliberately hurt you and make it personal, it is extremely difficult to not be hurt.
And I have to say this about your stories being your children: THEY ARE NOT. You do not sell your children. Writing for a market, whatever it may be, is a business. Creating a story, honing it to the best of your ability, evoking thought and/or emotions and maybe even making a point -- all are part of a creative process. But once you're done and it's time to sell the heck out of it, it's a business. The people trying to decide whether to buy your story are business people making a business decision, not adoptive parents. And when it comes time to make changes (yes, there will be changes) it is not personal. If someone asks you to do so, it is your JOB to discard some words -- alter a few patterns, expand an idea, enhance a character -- and come up with others that are better.
Who was up on this box earlier? Did you ever figure out how to get down without hurting yourself?
And GEEZ LOUISE, I will say this one more time, so pay attention: I do not have a website (yet) or a blog (maybe not ever), my email address is a state secret (it would be if those HS guys ever got ahold of it), and I am frankly terrified of the Cherry Forums and will not go over there ever -- THIS blog sucked me in without a qualm during an inattentive moment and I believe that group would do the same with little or no compunction. Sort of like an alien abduction, to which I seem to be unusually susceptible. Where was I? Oh yeah, if anyone wants to contact me, Jen has very graciously agreed (ok, so there was blackmail involved) to forward any emails to me. So. Do that. I promise neither of us will hurt you. Much.
bw
CMS: I have NO IDEA who is flying that biplane. I left it in the DC area up there next to Dirk Pitt's hanger, useful for a fast getaway if needed, and MCB and Bryan were the last ones seen in the vicinity.
I have been slaving away at work all day, trying to earn money so I can bring home the dog/cat food.
bw
BCB - All well said and louise my e-mail is jtalty@talty.com. So e-mail and I will forward it HER, geez, not only have I become her personal laugh factory, but her secretary too. Geez, I don't get paid enough for this job. I WANT A RAISE!
I do have a website and I changed it! Based on the fact that I liked the eyes, but not the flower (not into flowers, yes, I know I'm missing some female hormone or something) anyway, go check it out. jennifertalty.com I didn't know how to change the template at first, but figured it out. Yeah me. Oh, and I still think there are a couple of typos because I haven't fixed those yet, so I know they are there. Sigh, so much to do, so little time and today I put 68 miles on my car just taking my kids places and going to the grocery store and I still have to pick up my daughter from her friends house. I need a secretary - anyone interested? The pay is laughs, since I tend to make BCB roll around on her floor every time I talk to her.
How the heck was that for self-promotion!
Jen asked: How the heck was that for self-promotion!
Very good, except you forgot to mention the *&#%&$ deal and that #&$*&*# you've been asked to write and the pending contract for the ^#$@$ and... bzzzt, bzzzt...
Hello? Why yes, I'm quite well, thanks for asking. And how are you? Yes, I had a lovely day at work, thank you. I just love my boss, he is a GAM. Of course I'll do that ironing for you. Right away. Anything else while I'm at it?
...zzt (twitch)... zzt...
bw
GG, Theresa and others--thanks for the advice. Much appreciated.
Theresa wrote: Academia. Not for whimps.
Amen to that. That is actually one of the things I REALLY need to work on. I have little to no confidence in most of my research and it very much comes through in my writing as I tiptoe around actually contradicting other scholars. Which frustrates my supervisor to no end as I am able to say it verbally to her in tutorials but not put it down on paper. I just have this huge mental block that says "these people are published. they know more than you. therefore you are wrong". Which consciously I know is bullsh*t, but subconsciously it's a huge hurdle. One I have to jump over and soon. ;)
sxyql--Sexy quail. (Yes, I know, that's disturbing).
By the way:
Bob wrote: Jenny also just emailed me how she would like the climactic scene of the book to go. Considering I’m still outlining Act Three that’s very nice of her. I told her I would have my part of the entire book done by 9 September. We shall see.
Did anyone else find this a little, oh I don't know, disturbing? Threatening? Portentous? Snarky as all hell? Hysterically funny?
Anyone else wondering about the likely content of Jenny's emailed reply? Or how much hair she has pulled out? And whether it was hers or his?
Anyone else wondering whether Bob has indeed learned about the wedding dress? And the pattern and design involved in its making?
Maybe I'm just easily amused.
bw
BCB - Yeah, I wondered about Bob's threatening, snarky comment about the being done by September 9th. I actually laughed out loud thinking about what Jenny's comment back to him might be. Ya think he's searching for that hot button again?
And BCB - you are easily amused. Are you ready for bed yet?
fqmqprqb - the noise BCB is making right now.
christina: best piece of advice I ever got about academic writing was from my writing grad student instructor in college: "You are an opinionated person. Use it!" Which is to say, take a stand and demand to be heard. If you pussyfoot around, no one takes you seriously. You can say the most remarkable and outrageous things as long as you pretend you are totally confident about them. Even when you are not. Channel Davy Dempsey.
Bit like walking in the hallways in high school when you're not supposed to be there. As long as you act like you're where you're supposed to be and like you're on a mission to do something for someone, no one questions you. If you look suspicious, everyone asks for your hall pass...
You're perfectly confident here. Just imagine your cherrybomb cheering section is behind you when you write or present on your topics and that we are supporting your every word.
You can do anything. You're a cherrybomb.
Sigh...one of the few things I miss from academic life: advising students. I loved that part.
Jeez, guys, all that when I ask about criticism vs critique. Way cool!
Now the next entertaining pair of thoughts for the day, aligned closely with c vs c!
There are ideas and then there are values. Huh? Well, an idea may be a novel that has the protagonist whacking people with a frying pan. A value may be that any novel is immoral if it has YEX in it.
We may critique (or euphemistically criticize in a positive way) a person's idea that kettles provide more interest than pans. However, we may not critique a person's values that YEXy novels are immoral.
So whaduyuthink?
qiojahh: Quit Inhaling Orange Juice. AHH!
Gaterperson - very insightful!
scope dope: JJ basically explained the third persons (limited=through a character's head, and you know only what they know, where omniscient think god; you can know everything while your characters know NOTHING). and i swear i will get back to my job before i go to bed- expect an email by the time you wake up.
BCB said "You do not sell your children".
ummm, that's not always true. but i get the point. it's only emotional until your going to make money on it. :) (which frankly sounds like kids to me but...)
don't worry. i actually did get your point.
g-g: that confidence works anywhere. and this is said from the girl who when ditching classes would walk out like she owned the place. and was never caught. who used to go into "restricted areas", and was never really caught.
and yes, opinions. there is this poem about how in today's world, it's all about "adding questions and like, whatevers at the end of sentences. inviting the person to like, jump on the bandwagon of your uncertainty".(or something along those lines) great poem. at the end he's going "so speak in declarative sentences...you know?" (umm, forgetting the guys name, he was in Season 2- or was it three- of Def Poetry...i can find out if anyone's really interested).
oooo, nice one gp.
gatorperson: but can an idea have value?
Sorry, just have to throw a wrench in there. It's what I'm good at.
GG - Ha! No pussyfooting around in my neighborhood! A dear friend used to tell me, If you have a thought and don't share it, you are ignornat. If you have a ignorant thought and you share it, you just might be the smartest person on the planet. Bottom line, speak up.
Can't say I'm the shy type. Actually, I took that stupid test and it said that I'm a very animated person. yep, I am. Friendly, outgoing and all that. But it also said that I'm more masculine than feminine? What the heck. I am woman hear me roar! Okay, so I'm not all goofy over jewlery or flowers. But that doesn't make me less than a whole woman! Yes, that test annoyed me!
BCB: The wedding dress! Do you think Jenny's going to make Bob go to some of the wedding superstores to get him in the right mood? I mean, places like that certainly make me feel like I ought to be killing people... :)
Where is Kyra? Kyra? Weeeeee miiiiiiiss youuuuuuuu!
GP: Ouch. You are stepping perilously close to that censorship line. In general, my thought about this is: if it offends you, put it down and don't read it.
There is only one book I have not been able to read: Trinity. I know, I know, a lot of people love this book and certainly many have been able to read it. I've tried three separate times and have never made it past chapter one. My fault entirely.
However, there is one book (out of thousands) that I could not finish reading because I found it too offensive, and one movie which I walked out of (mostly because of the audience reaction to it). Both experiences were so traumatically offensive, IMO, that I will not even tell you the name of the book and the movie (not the same). But I will stand here and do the whole "defend to the death" thing about the authors' right to produce that crap.
However, I do find it increasingly difficult to heap criticism on any writing effort, knowing how much hard work went into the darn thing, well done or not.
bw
BCB - I love the book Trinity. That's where I got the name Conor for my son.
Not much offends me. Live and let live. Don't screw your neighbor. Treat others like you would want to be treated, extra. I understand the world doesn't share all my values, but that doesn't matter. What matters is we co-exist in peace and respect.
Eeek. Need to clarify. I did not find Trinity offensive in any way. I just couldn't get past chapter one. Three times. I have no idea why. I'm sure it's a perfectly wonderful book.
Jen, believe me, if you had read this other book, well, what you are currently writing is like Sesame Street in comparison. Never mind, bad analogy-- you are terrified of Kermit.
bw
It's not easy being green...having to worry about sharks in the lake...and frogs in the toilet bowl...and a vibrating bed that isn't even in earthquake territory...
Nevermind. It doesn't really scan, does it? Don't worry, I won't quit my day job to become a lyricist.
When a couple lie in bed together, both focused on the computer, Ms. Levine said, they can be said to be engaging in an intimate act.
Ms. Sholes said. “At this stage in our marriage I feel like we should bring our laptop into bed more often.”
“The big laptop thing in bed was a more obvious statement of having his mind elsewhere,” Ms. Falk said. “This small object can be fondled under the covers.”
Bitsie, a nickname Ms. Falk borrowed from another couple whose computer is a constant presence, not only lights up. It also vibrates. [She's talking about his handheld.] [Oh, that doesn't help, does it?]
Hard to concentrate on the blog, as the cats are sprawled in front of the monitor and Cat is doing her best to lick Other Cat's face off...
How on earth do you write in second person???
jkcwg -- Jen killed children with gun.
kznocjqs -- Sexy undergarment worn by Ionian whinks while mating.
Pronounced "Susie."
BCB - you know, now I'm dying to know what book it is. But you know, I watched SAW and SAW 2 with DH. Talk about disturbing, but I watched it, then had nightmares.
GG - Smile - that was cute.
Tal - Second person is like, "You stood at the crossing, taking out your gun and you shot five people." I think. I'd never do it.
Okay, off to the vibrating bed. DH headed up about an hour ago with his crackberry which vibrates too and it's time to fonlde things under the sheets. Hey, Tal brought it up not me!
nnprywat ????
Some things really will (or should) bring down the wrath of The GAM and The Cherry upon one's head, and talking about this book is one of them. Sorry I mentioned it.
Going to bed now. No vibration. No handheld electronic devices. No affectionate kittens. No earthquakes. No cowboy GAMs. Damn it.
And you wonder why I resort to writing fiction?
bw
lwnci: lemmings will never covertly infiltrate
Ok, about the stories being children thing... What if I WANT to sell my kids... Um, no, that's not what I meant to say...
Trying this again: I understand what you mean, because obviously, no sane woman would want to sell her children. So the stories are not like children. But what if a woman really got sick of her kids rushing into her office every time she was trying to finish a story, got sick of the kids constantly talking back and leaving their stuff all over, got sick of doing laundry instead of writing, and decided to sell all of her kids and just keep her stories?? Umm, no, I guess that wouldn't work either, huh? (Can you tell I've been havintg a time with the kids and writing lately? Did you notice I'm posting after midnight, and soon I will be off this blog and NOT in bed because the house is quiet and I brewed a pot of coffee and I am going to WRITE, dammit?!!?)
In all seriousness, my stories ARE my kids right now, because I am not yet to the stage where I am seriously considering selling anything. I am in the stage where I need to write. I'm not writing to a market, I'm not writing with publication in mind, I'm not writing for anyone else but me. But I really need to write. I want my stories to be good, because that's who I am. I can't do something half-assed. It has to be the best that I am capable of doing. That's why I'm so interested in the process. I want to do it right.
At some point, some day, if I feel that the time is right, I may consider sending a story someplace in the hopes of getting sold/published. If I am ever at that point, then I will have to make the transition from thinking of them as my kids to thinking of them as 'things'. However, I'm not there yet. They are still full of me, I am putting real tears into them, they are giving me aches and bruises and pains, just like my kids. So yeah, they are my kids too, at least for a while. Maybe some day, they will be 'just stories' that I can sell, but I'm just not there yet.
I know, bcb, you're probably right. But you can't say "Would you sell your kids?" because honestly, as a mom of six (today!) hellions, there are days when the answer to that would be "HELL YES I WOULD! Do you wanna buy them???"
Um, Dee? Are you implying there might be SEVEN of them tomorrow? What did you have for dinner last night?
Seriously, your point is well taken. I have often wanted to sell my kids to the highest (WTH, the lowest) bidder. My point, and I know you understood it, is that somewhere in the process (if your process is becomming published) you have to take emotion out of the equation and become a professional.
I did not mean to imply, nor should you ever believe, that your stories are "things" or that they are "just stories." They speak to you, and they depend on you to speak for them. That reconciliation, the melding of the creativity of the writer and the reality of business, is part of the magic. You have to find the fine line between the two. But they are not your children.
Now I really am going to bed.
bw
Oh dee, POOR BABY. I think you really needed that. Sounds like you are having a really bad day. Watch out drinking too much coffee at this hour. You won't get any sleep and then tomorrow will be another bad day.
orangehands please explain completely so that I can understand...what is 2nd person? I only know first and third. Thanks jen-t for trying to explain it to us but I don't get it. I need help. /,(
red htwln
How to write love notes.
bcb wrote... Um, Dee? Are you implying there might be SEVEN of them tomorrow? What did you have for dinner last night?
Nah, just that TODAY they are hellions. As opposed to yesterday when they were my wee ones, and the day before when they were darlings. Hopefully tomorrow, they will be KIDS again. But TODAY, they were the spawn of Satan. I guess that makes me the devil, huh?
Yep, that fits.
Thanks for the (((hugs))) SDCB. I needed it.
Now I'm really closing this blog and getting over to my wip. Really.
Right.
Now.
GG said...
Bit like walking in the hallways in high school when you're not supposed to be there. As long as you act like you're where you're supposed to be and like you're on a mission to do something for someone, no one questions you. If you look suspicious, everyone asks for your hall pass...
So true. I got backstage at the SF Opera House during opera season, also during ballet season (I can on no way possibly ever since about the age of ll pass for a ballerina), and onto a movie being shot on location. It must be that Saggitarius obliviousness - I don't expect to be stopped, and I'm not. Security guards and cops just tip their hats and wave me through. LOL! I should say that each time, I just happened to be there for something entirely different and was rather bumfuzzled when I realized what I was in the middle of. ;+)))
talpianna (SDCB, too) said...
How on earth do you write in second person???
It's sort of a narrative thing, like: "You're standing there, and this guy walks up and ask you for a dime. So, you tell him, "Hell, no!"
Think of foreign languages where there are three persons: FIRST: I/we; SECOND: you/you; THIRD:
he, she or it/they. What they're referring to is the subject of the sentences, really.
First person is when the narrator is telling the story from their POV ("I woke up screaming."). Third person is the most common, when the narrator isn't part of the story but is describing what happens to the characters ("He crossed the room.")
So, in second person, the narrator may be describing what happened to him/herself, but they're distancing themselves by using "you" ("You open the door and, boom, the guy on the stoop pops you in the eye.") I've made my examples very colloquial, but it doesn't have to be.
Stories as children - well, if you think of writing and editing and revising your book as raising your child and preparing him/here for life, then sending it out to editors and agents is sort of like sending your real child out to college or to look for a job. Right?
omtqrmh (green)
Oh my, Tal, quit reading my hand (?)
yjzgrxyu (red)
Yikes, Jenny. Zoe grabbed Robert, xuding yex unrelievedly.
part one:
dee: good luck. with the spawns of satan. a devil can handle writing, but little baby devils? *shudder*
JJ basically had it right. for the most part, 2nd person (and aren't there english and literature majors here? yet your depending on the girl you spent her day signing- as in ASL- notes in english class (7th)...or doing her nails (8th)...or painting (6th)...or ditching (9th-12th, but esp 12th)...umm, anyone see a pattern here?). so, 2nd person is when you substitute "you" for "i". there's been about seven (yes, i'm making up this number, but it is really small) books written in 2nd, and they all mostly suck. so here's an ex, since that is mostly how i learn:
You take a step back. Your surprised, green eyes widened. You throw your hands up, misjudging, trying to keep the knife from slashing you. Your voice let's out a squeak.
authors have put scenes from the eye of the killer in 2nd before. very rarely is a whole book written in 2nd. actual book example some of you may have: Lee Child, Running Blind, 2nd page. "You know the big problems will come after it. How do you make sure you get away from it? You use your knowledge."
i think Tami Hoag did it in her books Night Sins and Guilty as Sin for when the killers are talking, but don't have them to check.
anyways, hope that helped.
part 2:
me: yes, ideas can have values (all values are are ideas that were turned into something moral/immoral, however you define what it means to be moral/immoral). i think what gp was saying (or what i took it as), is that when you critique you are talking about style, character depth, why they have this instead of this. your not arguing with their idea about what being Muslim means to them.
which i don't think is censorship, BCB. my govt teacher (which if you haven't figured out yet i love and learnt so much from) did this test with us. i do not believe in censorship at all. so he asked me (and he knows i'm Jewish so he picked this example purposely because he figured it had added meaning to me...well, and because there was a recent article on it), should a neo-nazi group be allowed to parade down a street filled with Holocaust survivors. and i said yes.
not because i want to hear the nonsense they let spurt forth from them. and not because i think holocause survivors should have to deal with another group of selfish beep beeps. but because as offensive as i find them, some people find my beliefs equally offensive. and if i want to be able to have the right to march, then they get the right too.
and a lot of people in class disagreed with me. there should be lines you can't cross. and there should be lines. but who decides them? and what if they keep moving the line over until there's no need for a line because everything is under control.
i find Tom Likus disgusting. and my dad used to listen to him (which is a seperate issue). would i let my dad listen to him in the car with me? no. that is rude and unnecessary, because we both like the same music and there's plenty of other things we can listen to together. but would i ban that mysogynistic piece of shit? no. because then they'd ban my shows. and as much as i would like to be in control of where the line is, i'm not. so if i want my stuff, i have to put up with their stuff.
at the same time, since i'm so opinionated, i'm very vocal about my views on the beeper and hope more people listen to me than him and also hope he ends up in a burning pile in hell.
huh? hate him? what made you think that?
so anyways, back to the point i started with, it's not censorship to say whether you like something or not, or whether you agree with certain views, what's censorship is stopping those views from being allowed to be seen. so i can say that book is horrible because the heroine is a terrible role model, it's disgusting, your sending yada ya message, etc, etc. but in the end, do i have a right to keep it from being seen? no.
i just won't buy the books and maybe write thing about it and talk to others and so on.
oh, my favorite joke in the world? that there are places that ban Fahrenheit 451, which is about banning books.
and i always wondered, would a book really not burn at fahrenheit 450?
oh, zaza answered that 2nd person question. and so much simplier than me.
and sorry for writing that much. didn't mean to make a speech, just a short (ha ha) post.
me: i just wrote something about censorship.
mom: what'd you say, shut-up?
(your funny story for the day, BCB)
I know what the second person is, people; I just didn't know how you'd tell a story in it. Didn't Damon Runyon use it, come to think of it?
What do you think of a story narrated in the present tense?
Dee, if you're going to sell a kid, don't let it go for anything less than the ability to spin straw into gold--either literally, or figuratively (as a metaphor for writing). Come to think of it, that ought to be worth a couple of 'em.
OH: You're talking about the Skokie incident, which I remember well; it was the first split between liberals in general and the ACLU. I had mixed feelings; I didn't think that the Nazi march should be allowed, because they were not members of the community but outsiders. But that argument could have been used against civil rights marchers. What I thought should happen was that the CHRISTIAN neighbors and sympathizers who supported the Jews of Skokie should have lined the parade route, standing on the curb, holding hands, forming a human chain with their backs to the Nazis, singing "We Shall Overcome."
What about people who deny that the Holocaust ever happened? Should they be able to express their views freely, or should whoever reprints them clearly label them false? Or the claim that Jews make matzoh from the blood of Christian babies, and other idiocies?
One of the least savory aspects of THE DA VINCI CODE is that it treats the Prot