Warning: Some Violence and Much Strong Language.HE WROTE: On Publishing And Critiquing.
I’ve done several critiques recently of cover letters, synopses, and excerpts of manuscripts. I’ve also critiqued my own CHASING THE DEAD and had it critiqued by my primary reader. First thing about critiques: you’ve got to be willing to accept feedback. CHASING was written originally over twelve years ago. So some of the writing is, uh, old? And not very good. It was also written in first person and now is in third person. What I’ve learned in changing from first to third is you initially go to third omniscient, not third limited. Lots of info-dump. Lots of over-view. Which has to be cut. So when my reader came in and said: “Love the character, love the plot, but the book is un-sellable as is” I had to do some serious re-evaluating of what I had. And I realized that I had to re-write those old scenes that were over-views. Make them sharper, more third limited, than third omniscient, put conflict in them, and cut a lot of the info-dump. I had to punch up a supporting character, cut a lot of ‘thinking’ and add more dialogue. Basically, the hardest thing I had to do, was do all the things I pontificate about when I teach, and apply them in my own manuscript.
In doing my submission critiques for other people, I constantly get asked: what are agents and editors looking for? How do you stand out, how does a new writer get published? Well, they’re looking for the same things readers are looking for: interesting and intriguing characters in interesting and intriguing situations. I just finished the second season of DEADWOOD and really enjoyed watching it. Why? The same reason. The characters had depth to them. They weren’t one-sided. The ‘hero’ had a flaw. The ‘bad guy’ had a soft spot. There was love, brutality, intrigue, double-crosses, manipulations, surprises, but most of all: conflict. The setting was unique: a town with no law. Every character thought the story was about them. People make mistakes. No one’s perfect.
What I recommend doing is watching movies or TV series on DVD and listening to the commentaries. I think most people will be shocked at the amount of discussion and detail that goes into every little thing. How writers and directors and actors all focus on little details and what they mean and most of all they focus on the emotional effect.
It’s the same when watching INSIDE THE ACTOR’S STUDIO. Where you learn how there was a large degree of luck involved, but also the years and years of hard work involved.
I’ve got all the emails of Jenny’s ‘patterns’ printed out and am pulling pieces and parts from them and trying to fit them into a linear outline for Acts Three and Four of AGNES. Along with notes for what I have to rewrite for Acts One and Two. Jenny also just emailed me how she would like the climactic scene of the book to go. Considering I’m still outlining Act Three that’s very nice of her. I told her I would have my part of the entire book done by 9 September. We shall see.
169 Comments:
Hi Bob - thanks for the blog!
Speaking as a reader, I can really enjoy a book done in as you say third omniscient. If I get a good feel for the characters and the plot pulls me in it can work. BUT, dialogue is what really puts me in the scene and turns me from being a reader to being an audience. Its a more intimate connection. It makes the difference between enjoying the book and reliving the scenes in my head long after I've finished reading it. It feels sharper and seems to pick the pace up as well.
Love Inside the Actors Studio!
"First thing about critiques: you’ve got to be willing to accept feedback"
Truer words ....
It is hard to accept critique when you slave over a project, your baby so to speak. If you aren't at a place where you can accept the feedback, what a waste of everyone's time. I find it interesting, and very telling, that you made it clear you were discussing critique and not "constructive criticism" (an oxymoron). There is a big difference between the two for both parties.
I reckon accepting criticism is probably one of the hardest things to do as a writer. But if you can get past it and it makes the book better.... thats magic.
I'm looking at 3 pages of "suggestions" from my ed at the moment and after grumbling I started to look at it. I began the rewrites today and already I can tell the story is stronger.
Still...I wish I could get it right first time round more often.
jagfh - jpy and gratitude for HEA
Very timely post Bob. I'm about to send my ms out into the world and want the package to be the best it can be. Contsructive criticism is crucial as is your ability to distance yourself from it emotionally.
I was having a discussion yesterday abotu pseudonyms. You've had several. Why use them? Why decide to go with your real name for the collaboration? I'm trying to decide whether I should use one or not.
Glad to see you here, Bob : ) All the cake talk was piling the pounds on as I read. You would think the body count would negate that but no.
cmsheryl: I think I read that he, and other writers, uses pen names so he can write in different genres and not confuse readers. Readers come to expect a certain thing from a certain author, and if that author suddenly goes from, say, contemporary romance to futuristic detective (Nora Roberts/JD Robb) it may confuse and possibly turn off readers.
I think.
I've always liked third/omniscient myself. For some reason I have a hard time getting into first-person books, both writing them and reading them.
and I'm always looking for a good critiquer. I get upset when I think they don't actually rip it apart enough. I expect my manuscripts to be bloody when i get them back (and not just from body count).
Thanks Bob, I always enjoy your insights. It helps that I'm racing though the first season of Deadwood now too.
I read a Regency Romance recently. A RITA finalist. It had some clever scenes in it, but the characters were not complex. The author would've hit the ball out of the park if she'd not had such predictable characters.
Hard work and luck. If only we had more control over the luck.
Always good to be reminded of these things.
thanks, Peggy
This post is very interesting to me on two levels. One, the whole DVD thing and Television. I'm not a huge fan of TV, don't watch it much. DH is a huge fan of sports (I do watch) and Movies, which I will usually fall alseep since we have that whole entertainment thingy in our bedroom, so I'm like in bed, so I like sleep... Anyway, every sucessful writer I know tells me the same thing "WATCH DVD'S WITH COMENTARIES and MOVIES." Okay, I get it. So now I'm watching the first three seasons of MOONLIGHTING and MIAMI VICE starting tonight. Loved those shows when they were on, so I supposed I'd like them again. Besides, MOONLIGHTING is really a great love story until the idiots ruined it and the final episode was pretty stupid... but I'm rambling again.
The second level of this post I find a tad bit humerous. Critiques are interesting. I when I give someone something to read I want an honest reaction. If you hate it, I want to know, but more importantly, I want to know why.
I had the honor of Bob critiqueing one of my manuscripts. When I had orginally got the critique, I couldn't decided on which manuscript to send him, the one that had won a few contests, that I knew was good, or the one that I was struggling with, had set aside because something wasn't working. A friend said to me, "What do you want? A pat on the back or good feedback?" I laughed, i hate pats on the back. Besides, that's for my husband, kids and mother who are my cheerleaders. So, I sent him the crappy one. Okay, it's not totally crappy, but I knew deep down that while the idea was okay, the story is there, something was dreadfully wrong.
Now on to Bob - who is amazing, a GAM, (shhh, we don't want it to go to his head). Anyway, amazed because I got my critique quckly, and it was very detailed. Lots of good stuff and well, he had negative things to say. THANK YOU BOB! I've always hated when people sugar coat things. Anyway, one of the first things he said to me was that my hero was kind of stupid up front. He said a few other things about my poor hero. I sat back and said outloud "Shit, he's right." I studied his critique, good and bad (and there were a few things I disagreed on and kept as is. Hey, it's my story). My point is this, you have to weed through what someone says and not take any of it personally. I shared this critique with a friend and she said, "Geez, this guy is tough." I said, "No, he's honest."
I no longer look at my manuscripts as my babies. Yes, I'm attached to them, the characters, the stories and they really become a part of my daily life, but not the same way my children are. Say a bad thing about my kids, touch them, and watch out. But feel free to give an honest assesment of my work.
With all of that said, I've had people rip my work apart just because they can. That's not good. You do have to be careful of who you ask. Early in my writing I had someone read my stuff and they came back with they couldn't get through the first few pages because it was so bad. That's not helpful. And, the story wasn't bad, just the writing, which can be fixed.
Okay, I'm done.
I have a hard time with critiques, especially if I really like the people. I find myself looking for nice things to say, when that's not really the point, is it? I mean, I don't want to be MEAN, you know?
As for my stuff, we talked about this last night at dinner. I think we might have bored my Shane to tears when we started talking shop. Bryan was a gem, really. He looks like Regis, but better, and I *hear* he's a very good kisser. Just sayin...
Anyhow, when I'm writing, I have a very hard time telling people about my stories. I feel like if I start telling them, they're not MINE anymore. I think this is because most people usually want to tell me what ELSE I should add, or their ideas for how things should happen next. It's one thing to do a collective story, like on here with Rene, and have everybody add their own stuff to it, and it's fun. It's quite another when I'm trying to get the person screaming in my head out onto my computer screen, and *I* know what she's saying and where she's going, and WHO SHE IS, then someone tries to tell me, after hearing about her for maybe 3 minutes, what she should do next. I mean, if they're that sure they know, then they should WRITE THEIR OWN DAMN BOOK!!
Sorry, it's just so frustrating for me sometimes. I mean, as soon as people hear that I write (if you can really call what I do 'writing' these days) they are so sure that they know just what my story needs to make it REALLY BIG. They don't seem to understand that I write because I HAVE TO WRITE TO STAY SANE, not because I want a huge publishing deal, or to be on the NYT list, or do a book tour, or something.
Geez, I've ranted, and just realized that I should really do that over on my own blog, since I haven't posted something new over there in week.
I had a WONDERFUL time last night with Bryan and mcb. He couldn't get your calls in the basement of the ESPNZone, but he got voicemails. He was really nice, and didn't laugh to much when mcb and I squealed when we saw each other. I have to tell you, I *really* love mcb!! Bryan showed us his pics (TOTALLY amazing!) and we even got to read some of his Gabby story. I would LOVE to be able to critique that one. It's really good so far, and I enjoyed it. I want to critique it because I'd love the chance to read it before it goes to print and I have to pay for it. Yeah, I'd buy it. He's a CB, of course I'd buy it. Plus, it really was pretty good.
Anyhow, this is turning into a novel. When I started, there were only 5 posts. I wonder how many others have been on and posted since i started this ramble?
First thing about critiques: you’ve got to be willing to accept feedback
Ohhhh yes. This is a difficult area because so many people hear a critique suggestion and internalize it as, "She thinks I suck." Most often, that's not the case at all.
I volunteer as a judge in a few RWA chapter conferences because, prior to getting published, I entered several contests. I think it's important to 'pay it forward' when other authors gave their time and expertise to me in the past. I go out of my way to find positive aspects in every entry. When there are other areas that need improvement, I go out of my way to be tactful in the suggestions.
Overall, I'm most comfortable staying within my critique group. No blood is shed and no poison slipped in each other's drinks in retaliation. *g*
foruunt: Forgiving other readers ultimately unites newer tries.
Dee - when people come to me and ask me to crit their stuff I make sure they understand that I am honest and if it's not working for me, I will tell them and I will tell them why. With that said, I'm not mean about it.
I know what you mean about people telling you what to add. I actually consider myself a decent plotter. I'm confident that I can come up with a good story, not always confident on how that story ends up on paper. I don't talk to non-writers about my stories anymore, with the exception of my husband and two close friends who understand on a different level. My husband is funny, because he doesn't get it, at all. He just sits there, nods his head and smiles then says he loves me, gives me a little kiss and walks away shaking his head. Then again, I don't get what he does for a living. He sells motors? Small gear motors in the heating and cooling industry? Not sure what that means.
Dee - loved your ramble - so glad you had a nice time with my Twin Bryan, since he looks like Regis.
Did you realize that Jen-T finally made it to the New York Times? If you can't believe it, check this link:
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/08/24/fashion/thursdaystyles/24laptop.html?th&emc=th
I also tried the personaldna.com test which was posted in the JCF forum. It's not only interesting to do (and way faster than the 30 minutes they tell you it will take) but it also occurred to me that there are a lot of questions one could answer from the POV of one's novel characters to determine which way they are thinking. I think I'll try it with one who is so unlike me that it gives me a hard time to figure out how she might react in certain situations. So, off I go.
CG - Ha! Funny article. Except, as you all know, our bed is not sacred. He brings his crackberry as often as I bring the laptop. But honestly, I don't do it when he's home, that much. The clicking of my fingernails drives him nuts.
Now off to check out personaldna.com thing. Thanks, like I'm supposed be writing an anthology here, due by Monday!
I've been thinking a lot about how viewpoint affects character lately, so this post was right on target for me.
I love watching Inside the Actor's Studio, because I see it as a show about story telling. Speaking of which, you should check out the documentary The Cutting Edge: the Magic of Movie Editing (2004). I saw it recently on cable and listening to the editors talking about using shots to build a scene was insightful. I was really awed by their ability to take a glance from one take and edit into the story as something profoundly revealing of character. Really, see it, listen to Walter Murch walk thru a character's thoughts in a scene as he cuts that meaning into the movie with shots (no dialogue). Amazing.
D-U-G said: I wish I could get it right first time round more often.
But...but, see, it's not a matter necessarily of right & wrong. It's more not-so-good, better, fabulous. And useful critiques will help you move your writing up that quality ladder.
I gave my first-ever editing/critiquing workshop to a group of (mostly beginning)writers last Saturday & the point they seemed to value the most was the one about baggage. That is, we all have baggage (life experience) that colors how we interpret what we read/hear/see. So the feedback from someone may be more about THEM than about your writing. Keep that in mind when choosing a crit partner & processing what they give you back.
>steps away from lecture podium<
And a good crit partner is worth their weight in dark chocolate.
CGWWIH: Critique gods work well in here.
Well Bob, I guess you're at the stage of, "He who teaches learns." *grin* As you know, (I've told you often enough)I got so much out of your four day retreat. I was tempted to send my new baby for you to critique but I so love this one, if you hated it, I'd probably have to kill myself. But that could be good, up would go the CB body count ... one less person making comments. *grin*
Last night I critiqued a friends manuscript (it's due to the editor by October) and realised she had a perfect grey moment (a lead up to the big black moment) of internal conflict which she hadn't utilized. I procrastinated a bit (hell i'm a Libra it's what we do best)on whether or not to say anything, it's her story, but I knew it would make the entire story stronger.
Finally did and sent it off last night around midnight. She responded this morning amazed, thrilled to bits, she totally got what I was saying and is going ahead with the advice. I guess critiquing is all about the delivery of the good and bad news, I love doing it and think I make a better editor than writer. How come I can see everyone else's work so clearly and muddle through my own?
rg
xwciszr I fell of my xwciszr again
Just as dialogue is what puts mcb into a book, dialogue is what hooked me on DEADWOOD. The Shakespearean turns of phrase, distinctive speech patterns for each character, and rich vocabulary-- beyond all those many-syllabled, consonant-laden cusswords--force me to keep my ears wide open, even when the throat-slitting and blood-spattering make me close my eyes.
Jen mentioned ... I no longer look at my manuscripts as my babies.
So funny you should say that today because Dee was talking about that exact thing last night ... she looks at her writing the same way she does her kids.
Critiquing: When I blithely offerred to assist a few CBs I thought I knew what I was doing. As I started to read the stories I quickly realized this was going to be harder than I thought. I'm not a writer (no, Scope, the road trip is not going to get published) but I need to read like I need to breathe. If I have to choose, it will be reading. So I figure I have some experience there in what works and what doesn't.
The hard part is respecting that its not your story. You can't jump in and tell the other person what to write. You have to analyze what works and what doesn't and help them to write it better but it has to be their words on the paper. And that's hard for me because I am a fixer by nature.
We sat there last night, Dee and I chattering like demented magpies and I had to laugh because as I told Bryan, I had only met her once before for like 5 minutes but here we were as comfortable as if we had a lifetime friendship. I've said it before but it can't be said enough - she's a DOLL! Those of you coming to NJ are in for a treat! Be sure to ask her about the bucket o' margaritas.
As Dee said Bryan showed us some of his photos and let us read some scenes he had written and both were *very* impressive. But dang the pages were only excerpts! That's just a tease!
Oh, and yeah a bit like Regis. Not obvious at first, IMO, but then I think the eyes and some expressions. Regis, but maybe older. As to what Dee *heard*, I have know idea what transpired before Shane and I joined them.
Kyra? How's your friend doing?
Jenny Crusie xcellently (k)nits gripping scenes.
Life baggage is interesting. I grew up in a very "interesting" household to say the least. I supose being called ding bat number 2 might have something to do with my thick skin, or being the youngest and always having to fight to be heard, or being dyslexic or whatever. I know all of those things drive me, but the key word is driven. Yeah, I'm driving my family insane. When i want something, I go for it, both barrels loaded.
redks - reading edits doing kicks
tcpzl - tiger calls peter, zulu lost
Sorry, I'm back again.
If anyone wants to take an international survey on the state of romance for Harlequin Mills and Boons 2007 report:
http://www.surveymonkey.com/s.asp?u=498022418384
It's cute. Takes a couple of moments. Complete anonymity. I did it. *grin* I'm a complete romantic.
rg
wikacrz
Wiccan curse
Yay! new bob blog!
.... obviously I survived the wedding, despite the number of sloshed guests and a lot of free grog. It's taken me 5 days to recover, lol.
Lynn said:"...critique and not 'constructive criticism' (an oxymoron)."
ENLIGHTEN ME, PLEASE. I think of them as synonymous. Obviously you all don't. I seem about to involve myself in helping out with someone's work (none of you all), and now you're telling me constructive criticism ain't critique. ENLIGHTEN ME, PLEASE.
bimzkar: But In My Zenith Kant Argues Realistically.
Every once in a while I get a call from my father asking for advice (we've worked together a number of times, so we have both personal and professional relationships). He's well known in the community for which he writes and he does a lot of book reviews. He's got a reputation for being honest about what he does and does not like.
Yesterday he said he'd read an old friend's (non-fiction) book, as promised, and that he thought it was well-written, but totally disagreed with the premise. Once again, I gave him the advice I always give him. People ask him because they know he will be honest with them. Because he won't give them a critique that is "oh, it's all so lovely" which helps the author not at all. I told him to go ahead and tell our family friend that if you accept the premise, it's a good, well-thought-out, interesting book. But that the premise doesn't work for him. And finally that THAT IS WHY OUR FRIEND ASKED HIM TO READ IT. After 20 years, that friend knows what he's asking for when he asks for a critique.
I say the same thing about his book reviews. His readers count on him to say when something is excellent and when something is awful and if he starts being less than honest, his readers will find another reviewer who will give them a decent appraisal. He's not mean (usually, unless an author has obviously not given credit to those who deserve it), but he does say things like "this book is historically inaccurate and here are examples of how." And, as my father said, all critiques are subjective, which is why there is more than one book reviewer on the planet.
So critique: not always easy for either reader or writer, but honesty presented with kindness and civility is essential to the health of the work itself and a boon to future readers.
Oooooh. It's really high up here on this soapbox. Could someone help me down, please? :)
In my humble opinion constructive critism is the way we handle in our minds critism. We will view a negative comment as cronstructive when it's not hurtful or when it makes sense to us. We might look at it is not so constructive when we either disagree with the statement or when we find it hurtful.
Now, remember this when critiqing someone's work, or having your own done. There is a fair amount of subjectivity involved. When I judge contests, I try and leave my personal likes and dislikes out of the equation and focus on the writing and the story. I am probably going to get "lamb blasted" for this one, but I am not a huge fan of "chick-lit" or the chick lit tone. It's not a first person thing, because I love TELL NO ONE, by Harlon Coban, and it's first person. Same thing with UP COUNTRY by Nelson DeMille, but it's a story line. Obviously, I like mystery, thriller, military plots, to name a few. But, my CP writes Romantic Comedy in first person with that snarky edge. And she's very good at it. I can give her feedback on storyline, characters and writing in general, but I wouldn't normally pick that up from the shelf. Am I making any sense here?
I have very strong opinions about this topic. I'll use Bob's crit of my work again as an example. The MS I sent him the hero is a military guy and well, I got most of that wrong. Go figure, and I even have a brother in the Navy, but when I told my brother about he hero, he laughed his ass off, because again, I'd gotten it all wrong. I fixed that part, but there was one thing that Bob said about about the story that I firmly disagreed on. I left that part the same, well sort of. I made it better, but stuck with my orginal idea, sort of. Okay, so I changed it a little, but you get what I'm saying. This is the same MS that recently finaled in a contest.
Okay, contests. Take with a grain of salt. I enter them and I do get some great feedback, but weed through the good, the bad and the ugly. I once got contest results back where one judge gave me a 94 out of 100 and another judge gave me a 32. Figure that one out. I had a third judge who gave me a 78. Very subjective. What I found interesting, is that I did get the most out of the judge who gave me the lowest score. She/he really got me thinking and while I disagreed with much of what he/she said, I was able to put my thoughts to good use and make that manuscript stronger. FYI, that's the one coming out in next June.
Jen: You make a good point about being subjective. If you don't like the chick-lit genre you go into it with a bias. That's natural. But I don't think its necessarily a bad thing. In some ways it could help you be objective perhaps. You aren't vested in the genre so you can analyze specifics if you see what I mean.
Gatorperson: I can't promise to be enlightening, especially since I just got back from a campus-wide faculty luncheon complete with cake! But since a professor told me I have a lucky aura today (I found the big book he needed for class), here is my two cents worth ...
First, you are right. Critique and criticism are synonomous. I find them distinctly different because to me criticism implies something is wrong; it isn't often we criticize someone in a good way. I look at critique more along the lines of an analysis, trying to make something better.
It might be a Knee-jerk throw back to 100 years ago when I was doing undergrad work and we discussed constructive criticism in various education classes. I always thought feedback was a better word all around. Keep telling a child they are wrong and soon enough they quit coming up with original ideas.
Guess it's just semantics, a you say tomato kind of thing. Either way, you have to be in the right place/frame of mind, to accept/ make needed changes. It also helps to have respect for the person providing the feedback.
Hope that made some sense.
Someone asked for the difference between constructive criticism and a critique.
My answer -- not much. *g* I think a lot of people automatically assign negativity to the word criticism. If someone spots something wrong with my writing and offers me a positive suggestion for improvement, then that's constructive criticism. If someone, however, just rips the work up one side, down the other, backwards and sideways -- that's annihilation and there's nothing constructive or positive to be found.
A thorough critique, to my mind, points out good points and bad points in the writing.
That's constructive, to me.
"I would have my part of the entire book done by 9 September"
*squeals* ok, just had to get that out of my way.
constructive c vs criticism: it means offering a solution/suggestion rather than just ripping into it. though someone by now has probably answered this with more detail.
pov:
i once read this book in 2nd person called Damage by AM Jenkins. it was about male depression (which is great because how often is that topic discussed?), and the fact it was in 2nd made the story for me. if it was in 1st or 3rd, it would have been good, yeah, but that it was in 2nd made it an excellent book.
but, a few weeks after reading it, i read this review that said they loved the book but wished it wasn't in 2nd. i was coming from the place that depressed people feel one step removed, which is how she made 2nd pov sound (seriously, read this book just to see a different way of writing), and the other reviewer was coming from the place that she thought it didn't flow right. we both had two very different interpretations. again, back to the baggage we carry. i come from a place where i know about depression through a close family member and she's coming from a "reading" stand point.
CG: LMAO.
anyways, interesting discussion so far.
oh, and those DVD commentary things are eye-opening. (so was film class, but for different reasons). i love West Wing, and got three seasons on DVD. in one of the episodes (for those who watch, Two Cathedrals, 2nd season finale), they have flashbacks and have a young man playing the future president. well, Martin Sheen has this way of putting on a jacket because of a disease he had when he was a kid, and the young man put on his jacket that way too. did i really notice him do so before the commentary? no. but would i have found the kid to be as great as he was? no. didn't consciously pick it up, but subconsciouslysomething would have said "oh, that's a little off".
where am i going with this? not sure. maybe the details. details, i believe, do matter. (though even after four years of "study how the 'a' is placed there instead of a 'the' to show the singular belief in the line and yada yada ya" is still BS to me.) but readers can pick things up, even if it's just subconsciously.
this was way too much thinking before wake-up time. so sorry if none of it made sense.
Now I feel bad. A fellow grad student presented his thesis at the Grad WiP at school. Afterwards, he asked me what I thought. I said it was good, he just needed to speak louder during his presentation. What I really thought was that his conclusions were based on scant evidence and he needed further material evidence to support his claims. But how do I make something like that constructive? Of course, this was academic stuff, so maybe that makes a difference somehow, but all I thought at the time was that I didn't want to hurt his feelings. Now I feel like I have done him a huge disservice.
Christina: someone will have said something. Probably one of the professors. Do not feel guilty.
But in the future something along the lines of, "You have a really interesting thesis, but I'm not sure that the academic community will agree with your conclusions at this point. Is there any way you can get more material evidence to support your claims so that your arguments are stronger?" might work. See, you've started with something positive, then asked if there's a way he can more effectively defend himself against attackers, of which there are always many in academia, and shown some solidarity with him as a fellow grad student whose ideas will be challenged by others.
Yes, I'm in marketing. I can spin this stuff in my sleep. :)
Cherry Magic Sheryl said...
I was having a discussion yesterday abotu pseudonyms. You've had several. Why use them? Why decide to go with your real name for the collaboration? I'm trying to decide whether I should use one or not.
I love names, and I love having new names for new things. My design stuff is under one name, my editing and coaching under another, my chicklit/romance/cozies another, vamp stuff yet another. That's just me, and a lot of people recommend against that, because it reduces the likelihood of readers moving from one genre to another of your writing because the names are totally different. I think it may be the artist in me - is there one name that fits with all the things I do? I've never thought so. ;+)
Dee said...
I have a very hard time telling people about my stories...because most people usually want to tell me what ELSE I should add, or their ideas for how things should happen next.
I developed an editing course for one of my employers when I was working as a course developer. I wanted to call it, "How Not to Edit," but they wouldn't let me. /;+) Because, really, most people know how to find "mistakes," but few people can tell a "mistake" from an instance of "not how I'd write it." It's hard not to make suggestions when you're editing or critiquing, but you need to remember that you're not the author and couch your suggestion in such a way that the author knows it is a suggestion, rather than a correction.
mcb said...
that Dee said Bryan looks like "Regis, but maybe older."
WTH? Regis is like 80 years old, fer gawd's sake. Are you telling us Bryan looks like a 90-year old??? I mean, he said he was 42. Have you had a hard life Bryan?
aaokywkw (blue)
All angels offer kisses (to) yield well kissed women.
zaza asked ... Regis is like 80 years old, fer gawd's sake. Are you telling us Bryan looks like a 90-year old???
No, LOL, no no. But I don't think Bryan gets regular facials or has a personal trainer.
Thank you Bob/GAM,
I took notes. Guess I must be ready for another conference. Have been in a holding pattern with some revisions and Bob's thoughts/suggestions/prompts/reflections got me thinking again.
Linear thinking/outline. Does that necessarily mean chronological order? I'm finding that I start with chronological and then play with it some.
Zaza: actually, Bryan implied he was over 100. Jen-T used subtle sleuthing to expose him as being in his early 40s. Which is younger than Regis, but, remember, most of us don't have the advantage of professional makeup and skincare. There are 60-year-old actresses that look younger than I (damn it). I had NO IDEA Regis was so old - Wikipedia says he's 75 tomorrow (bday 8/25/31).
you guys, Regis is old. and his voice can be annoying. and he tells horrible jokes.
be nicer to Bryan. i'm sure there are other old guys he can look like instead.
apparently, Regis is going to be in Shrek 3 as the voice of Mabel.
and did you know Larry King plays Doris, the ugly stepsister?
love the Shrek movies.
Glamour-Geek said:
See, you've started with something positive, then asked if there's a way he can more effectively defend himself against attackers
I agree. I use the compliment sandwich when I have to make a point that could seem hurtful. You say something positive, or give a compliment, then the filling is the stuff that might hurt or be sensitive, then close with something positive. It's nicer, gentler and still gets the point across.
As a critiquer you have to shelve your ego. You have to be totally objective. Most critiques that are from non-professionals (newbie writers, readers as opposed to editors) in my opinion are subjective. The person can't seperate away from their own thoughts on writing to look at the piece of work with a clear vision.
It's not your story. Your job should be only to look at the strengths and weaknesses not tell someone how to write. You ask yourself questions like "does the story hold up" "is it believable" "are the characters well-drawn, multi-dimensional" "is there enough plot to sustain an entire manuscript" "is there a good balance between romance and suspense" "are all of the threads tied up/all issues resolved" and so on.
Someone mentioned about contests and a wide disparity in scores, this happens a lot because judges are not trained well enough. Some contests can be harmful, but you get what you pay for. IMHO most newbie writers would be better off polishing their work until it glows and then sending it to a professional for advice than to enter contests judged by their peers. But, that costs big bucks.
Critique partners can be good, but there can also be incorrect advice given. Any advice you're given has to resonate with you, the writer, if it doesn't just toss it out.
rg
muqueuho Mu que u ho, get to the end of the line
RobinS, I left a response to your question on the last post.
And ScopeDope, I also left an extra tidbit on Mardi Gras for you there.
I'm never sure when people stop checking old posts.
On Regis/Bryan - I don't think most people realize how old Regis is, but still. So, Bryan isn't a metrosexual, huh? Good to know, with all the corset talk. Poor Bryan. Fortunately, I think he said he wasn't going to go back and try to catch up on the comments when he returns. But just in case, we loves you, Baby!
xqyulf (blue)
Xavier quietly yodeled under LuLu's fenetre. Sorry, I don't know how to do diacritical marks in Blogger.
Zaza: let me point you to the URL someone gave me when I asked (on this very blog, probably in Jan. or Feb.). Because this is an educational blog. Foreign characters in html are incorporated into the word without spaces: introduce the character with an &, then the letter, then an abbreviation of the diacritical mark (e.g. circ for circumflex), then closed with a semicolon. For example (I'm putting in spaces so you can see, I hope) fen& e circ;tre, for the example you used. To capitalize, just capitalize the letter.
yzrari: an even rarer, more expensive sports car
Christina - I find that there are many different levels on which it may be relevant to give feedback for an academic talk. If it's a practice talk, say for a later talk at a conference, then giving feedback about the presentation itself is important. Is the material presented in a clear manner so that the research and results are effectly conveyed? If there are things that a person can do to improve the presentation, e.g., speaking up, then this can be helpful.
Asking thoughtful questions about the research is also useful, both for you and for the presenter. I've had to learn to think critically when I'm listening to a talk, rather than sitting like a bump on a log, and thinking of questions keeps my mind engaged. And if you are planning to continue in academia down the road, this (thinking of the tough questions) is definitely something that you will have to do with your students. Also, practice answering tough questions is good for the presenter.
(Note, there is a difference between a tough question and a mean question.)
If the presenter is seeking feedback on his or her research thus far, and you have feedback to give, then go for it. What GG and someone else said though about starting with the positives, I agree with, and as GG said, no need to feel guilty. If the thesis presentation was to get this kind of feedback, then yes, some professors should have pointed out the weaknesses in his research. It's part of their job.
And with all sorts of critiquing, a lot comes through in how you say something.
And I must admit that I've had to toughen up since I've been in grad school. (After one of my first practice talks, I was in tears.)
Academia. Not for whimps.
(Geez, not sure where all this came from.)
RG made a good point about contests and the lack of quality judging, but that doesn't mean you can't learn from them and they are not worth the 25 - 50 dollars that it might cost you. When it comes down to deciding on a contest, I always look at who is the final judge. Is it someone I want to get my book in front of. Also, what am I looking for? Feedback? Intital reaction from someone doesn't know me? Or to final? Who are the judges? My peers? PRO's? Published Authors? What does this contest mean to me? If I can't answer these questions in a manor which suits me, I don't enter that contest.
I think the biggest mistake new writers make with contests is taking the feedback as gospel. As a writer, you have to decide what works for your story, and stick to it. For those of you who know me on a personal level, know my tag before selling had always been, "that's my story and I'm sticking to it." That's because I'm not going to change my story because someone said I should.
Hey MCB and BCB Where are you? I saw the biplane fly over and land at the airport in Niagara on the Lake several hours ago. I rushed home to make steak and salad for everyone at Scope Dope's again.
Writing is so internal and emotional. We're hacking into our psyches to put this stuff on the page. And until you've managed to step back from it, and put some distance between you and the emotion, you can't do the best job of editing. Writing is deeply personal and subjective, editing is impersonal and objective. Sometimes making that shift between the two is harder than other times. That's why I like to walk away from one project after the first draft and work on aspects of the next before I go back to edit.
I love talking craft. I can't wait for New Jersey to have these discussions in person. Unless the biplane really was you. In which case, I'm off to the liquor store for supplies. : )
BCB: do you have a way I can reach you via email directly? Are you on cherryforums? If you are, could you send me a message (I'm emily over there) so I can email you? Many thanks!
We now return you to your regularly scheduled discussion of dead bodies, cakes, and writing craft.
coptkibx: a very religious Egyptian bird.
Diane said...
Zaza: let me point you to the URL someone gave me when I asked (on this very blog, probably in Jan. or Feb.). Because this is an educational blog. Foreign characters in html...
Thanks, Diane. I probably knew that but, being a lazy woman, I didn't make the effort. Having a link, which I have bookmarked will maybe give my abition a boost the next time.
In talking about the difference between critiques and criticism, well, they shouldn't be different. But "criticism" has such negative connotations.
Critiquing and editing come in at different times along the writing timeline. Critiquing, informally anyway, can happen anywhere as you work on your book. But editing, even copy editing (especially?) needs to wait until you're failry happy with your plot and you draft is finished.
You can self-edit for typos, grammar and diction as you write and review, but a paid edit isn't worth the money if the ms isn't pretty well set. Doesn't mean your (publishing company) editor won't want changes /;+), but if you're paying for an edit, wait until you think you've got it licked. Remember, editors get paid for their time. They may quote you a per page price, but they're basing that on how long they thing a page of your ms will take them to process.
Stepping down from the podium, now. ;+)
icpfnw (blue)
If cats purr feelingly, no worries.
Dear Bob please tell me what third limited and third omniscient is. I don't think I have ever heard of them.
orangehands my little critque partner, I love you and lori and mcb you have been great so far. I haven't wanted to kill any of you once. /,D You have all been a big help.
green ybhonxal
Yo Bob, have ordinary news. Xavier arrives late.
SDCB - Third person limited and thrid person omniscient are easly confused and I'm not sure I will be able to explain them, but I will try.
Thrid Person Limited is when you are in one person's head during the scene. The reader is there with them and can only see what that character sees. So, if someone is hiding, but the character's who POV we are in doesn't know it, then the reader can't know it, make sense?
Thrid person omniscient is when the camera, or view point is (using Bob's words) pulled back in order to show the reader a bigger view of the scene. So in this case, the reader might know that someone is hiding, but the character doesn't. Make sense?
Diane: Thank you SO much for that link to HTML stuff. I've bookmarked it, too, and if I'm ever tempted to use it I hope someone will just shoot me and get it over with. I'd mess it up and probably destroy the blog. I think it's really cool that you can do that, but patience is not my strong suit.
Neither is tact, so I really hesitate to critique anything written by anyone, for any reason. I CAN be tactful, nice even, but it is sometimes a huge effort to do so while still being honest. And yes, Jen, I will get to those chapters you sent...
I grew up having every word I wrote and spoke edited (father: English teacher) so I guess I've developed a pretty thick skin about "criticism." When I started writing newspaper columns (I was horrible at first, BTW) I got a lot of editorial feedback and encouragement from a good friend/mentor who was an experienced newspaper writer. She was brutal, but impersonal. I was extremely appreciative. Because her advice came from experience. As much as it sometimes "hurt" (my ego, not my feelings) it was invaluable and a great learning experience.
That being said, I agree with Jen (and we talked about this last night) that if someone sets out to deliberately hurt you and make it personal, it is extremely difficult to not be hurt.
And I have to say this about your stories being your children: THEY ARE NOT. You do not sell your children. Writing for a market, whatever it may be, is a business. Creating a story, honing it to the best of your ability, evoking thought and/or emotions and maybe even making a point -- all are part of a creative process. But once you're done and it's time to sell the heck out of it, it's a business. The people trying to decide whether to buy your story are business people making a business decision, not adoptive parents. And when it comes time to make changes (yes, there will be changes) it is not personal. If someone asks you to do so, it is your JOB to discard some words -- alter a few patterns, expand an idea, enhance a character -- and come up with others that are better.
Who was up on this box earlier? Did you ever figure out how to get down without hurting yourself?
And GEEZ LOUISE, I will say this one more time, so pay attention: I do not have a website (yet) or a blog (maybe not ever), my email address is a state secret (it would be if those HS guys ever got ahold of it), and I am frankly terrified of the Cherry Forums and will not go over there ever -- THIS blog sucked me in without a qualm during an inattentive moment and I believe that group would do the same with little or no compunction. Sort of like an alien abduction, to which I seem to be unusually susceptible. Where was I? Oh yeah, if anyone wants to contact me, Jen has very graciously agreed (ok, so there was blackmail involved) to forward any emails to me. So. Do that. I promise neither of us will hurt you. Much.
bw
CMS: I have NO IDEA who is flying that biplane. I left it in the DC area up there next to Dirk Pitt's hanger, useful for a fast getaway if needed, and MCB and Bryan were the last ones seen in the vicinity.
I have been slaving away at work all day, trying to earn money so I can bring home the dog/cat food.
bw
BCB - All well said and louise my e-mail is jtalty@talty.com. So e-mail and I will forward it HER, geez, not only have I become her personal laugh factory, but her secretary too. Geez, I don't get paid enough for this job. I WANT A RAISE!
I do have a website and I changed it! Based on the fact that I liked the eyes, but not the flower (not into flowers, yes, I know I'm missing some female hormone or something) anyway, go check it out. jennifertalty.com I didn't know how to change the template at first, but figured it out. Yeah me. Oh, and I still think there are a couple of typos because I haven't fixed those yet, so I know they are there. Sigh, so much to do, so little time and today I put 68 miles on my car just taking my kids places and going to the grocery store and I still have to pick up my daughter from her friends house. I need a secretary - anyone interested? The pay is laughs, since I tend to make BCB roll around on her floor every time I talk to her.
How the heck was that for self-promotion!
Jen asked: How the heck was that for self-promotion!
Very good, except you forgot to mention the *&#%&$ deal and that #&$*&*# you've been asked to write and the pending contract for the ^#$@$ and... bzzzt, bzzzt...
Hello? Why yes, I'm quite well, thanks for asking. And how are you? Yes, I had a lovely day at work, thank you. I just love my boss, he is a GAM. Of course I'll do that ironing for you. Right away. Anything else while I'm at it?
...zzt (twitch)... zzt...
bw
GG, Theresa and others--thanks for the advice. Much appreciated.
Theresa wrote: Academia. Not for whimps.
Amen to that. That is actually one of the things I REALLY need to work on. I have little to no confidence in most of my research and it very much comes through in my writing as I tiptoe around actually contradicting other scholars. Which frustrates my supervisor to no end as I am able to say it verbally to her in tutorials but not put it down on paper. I just have this huge mental block that says "these people are published. they know more than you. therefore you are wrong". Which consciously I know is bullsh*t, but subconsciously it's a huge hurdle. One I have to jump over and soon. ;)
sxyql--Sexy quail. (Yes, I know, that's disturbing).
By the way:
Bob wrote: Jenny also just emailed me how she would like the climactic scene of the book to go. Considering I’m still outlining Act Three that’s very nice of her. I told her I would have my part of the entire book done by 9 September. We shall see.
Did anyone else find this a little, oh I don't know, disturbing? Threatening? Portentous? Snarky as all hell? Hysterically funny?
Anyone else wondering about the likely content of Jenny's emailed reply? Or how much hair she has pulled out? And whether it was hers or his?
Anyone else wondering whether Bob has indeed learned about the wedding dress? And the pattern and design involved in its making?
Maybe I'm just easily amused.
bw
BCB - Yeah, I wondered about Bob's threatening, snarky comment about the being done by September 9th. I actually laughed out loud thinking about what Jenny's comment back to him might be. Ya think he's searching for that hot button again?
And BCB - you are easily amused. Are you ready for bed yet?
fqmqprqb - the noise BCB is making right now.
christina: best piece of advice I ever got about academic writing was from my writing grad student instructor in college: "You are an opinionated person. Use it!" Which is to say, take a stand and demand to be heard. If you pussyfoot around, no one takes you seriously. You can say the most remarkable and outrageous things as long as you pretend you are totally confident about them. Even when you are not. Channel Davy Dempsey.
Bit like walking in the hallways in high school when you're not supposed to be there. As long as you act like you're where you're supposed to be and like you're on a mission to do something for someone, no one questions you. If you look suspicious, everyone asks for your hall pass...
You're perfectly confident here. Just imagine your cherrybomb cheering section is behind you when you write or present on your topics and that we are supporting your every word.
You can do anything. You're a cherrybomb.
Sigh...one of the few things I miss from academic life: advising students. I loved that part.
Jeez, guys, all that when I ask about criticism vs critique. Way cool!
Now the next entertaining pair of thoughts for the day, aligned closely with c vs c!
There are ideas and then there are values. Huh? Well, an idea may be a novel that has the protagonist whacking people with a frying pan. A value may be that any novel is immoral if it has YEX in it.
We may critique (or euphemistically criticize in a positive way) a person's idea that kettles provide more interest than pans. However, we may not critique a person's values that YEXy novels are immoral.
So whaduyuthink?
qiojahh: Quit Inhaling Orange Juice. AHH!
Gaterperson - very insightful!
scope dope: JJ basically explained the third persons (limited=through a character's head, and you know only what they know, where omniscient think god; you can know everything while your characters know NOTHING). and i swear i will get back to my job before i go to bed- expect an email by the time you wake up.
BCB said "You do not sell your children".
ummm, that's not always true. but i get the point. it's only emotional until your going to make money on it. :) (which frankly sounds like kids to me but...)
don't worry. i actually did get your point.
g-g: that confidence works anywhere. and this is said from the girl who when ditching classes would walk out like she owned the place. and was never caught. who used to go into "restricted areas", and was never really caught.
and yes, opinions. there is this poem about how in today's world, it's all about "adding questions and like, whatevers at the end of sentences. inviting the person to like, jump on the bandwagon of your uncertainty".(or something along those lines) great poem. at the end he's going "so speak in declarative sentences...you know?" (umm, forgetting the guys name, he was in Season 2- or was it three- of Def Poetry...i can find out if anyone's really interested).
oooo, nice one gp.
gatorperson: but can an idea have value?
Sorry, just have to throw a wrench in there. It's what I'm good at.
GG - Ha! No pussyfooting around in my neighborhood! A dear friend used to tell me, If you have a thought and don't share it, you are ignornat. If you have a ignorant thought and you share it, you just might be the smartest person on the planet. Bottom line, speak up.
Can't say I'm the shy type. Actually, I took that stupid test and it said that I'm a very animated person. yep, I am. Friendly, outgoing and all that. But it also said that I'm more masculine than feminine? What the heck. I am woman hear me roar! Okay, so I'm not all goofy over jewlery or flowers. But that doesn't make me less than a whole woman! Yes, that test annoyed me!
BCB: The wedding dress! Do you think Jenny's going to make Bob go to some of the wedding superstores to get him in the right mood? I mean, places like that certainly make me feel like I ought to be killing people... :)
Where is Kyra? Kyra? Weeeeee miiiiiiiss youuuuuuuu!
GP: Ouch. You are stepping perilously close to that censorship line. In general, my thought about this is: if it offends you, put it down and don't read it.
There is only one book I have not been able to read: Trinity. I know, I know, a lot of people love this book and certainly many have been able to read it. I've tried three separate times and have never made it past chapter one. My fault entirely.
However, there is one book (out of thousands) that I could not finish reading because I found it too offensive, and one movie which I walked out of (mostly because of the audience reaction to it). Both experiences were so traumatically offensive, IMO, that I will not even tell you the name of the book and the movie (not the same). But I will stand here and do the whole "defend to the death" thing about the authors' right to produce that crap.
However, I do find it increasingly difficult to heap criticism on any writing effort, knowing how much hard work went into the darn thing, well done or not.
bw
BCB - I love the book Trinity. That's where I got the name Conor for my son.
Not much offends me. Live and let live. Don't screw your neighbor. Treat others like you would want to be treated, extra. I understand the world doesn't share all my values, but that doesn't matter. What matters is we co-exist in peace and respect.
Eeek. Need to clarify. I did not find Trinity offensive in any way. I just couldn't get past chapter one. Three times. I have no idea why. I'm sure it's a perfectly wonderful book.
Jen, believe me, if you had read this other book, well, what you are currently writing is like Sesame Street in comparison. Never mind, bad analogy-- you are terrified of Kermit.
bw
It's not easy being green...having to worry about sharks in the lake...and frogs in the toilet bowl...and a vibrating bed that isn't even in earthquake territory...
Nevermind. It doesn't really scan, does it? Don't worry, I won't quit my day job to become a lyricist.
When a couple lie in bed together, both focused on the computer, Ms. Levine said, they can be said to be engaging in an intimate act.
Ms. Sholes said. “At this stage in our marriage I feel like we should bring our laptop into bed more often.”
“The big laptop thing in bed was a more obvious statement of having his mind elsewhere,” Ms. Falk said. “This small object can be fondled under the covers.”
Bitsie, a nickname Ms. Falk borrowed from another couple whose computer is a constant presence, not only lights up. It also vibrates. [She's talking about his handheld.] [Oh, that doesn't help, does it?]
Hard to concentrate on the blog, as the cats are sprawled in front of the monitor and Cat is doing her best to lick Other Cat's face off...
How on earth do you write in second person???
jkcwg -- Jen killed children with gun.
kznocjqs -- Sexy undergarment worn by Ionian whinks while mating.
Pronounced "Susie."
BCB - you know, now I'm dying to know what book it is. But you know, I watched SAW and SAW 2 with DH. Talk about disturbing, but I watched it, then had nightmares.
GG - Smile - that was cute.
Tal - Second person is like, "You stood at the crossing, taking out your gun and you shot five people." I think. I'd never do it.
Okay, off to the vibrating bed. DH headed up about an hour ago with his crackberry which vibrates too and it's time to fonlde things under the sheets. Hey, Tal brought it up not me!
nnprywat ????
Some things really will (or should) bring down the wrath of The GAM and The Cherry upon one's head, and talking about this book is one of them. Sorry I mentioned it.
Going to bed now. No vibration. No handheld electronic devices. No affectionate kittens. No earthquakes. No cowboy GAMs. Damn it.
And you wonder why I resort to writing fiction?
bw
lwnci: lemmings will never covertly infiltrate
Ok, about the stories being children thing... What if I WANT to sell my kids... Um, no, that's not what I meant to say...
Trying this again: I understand what you mean, because obviously, no sane woman would want to sell her children. So the stories are not like children. But what if a woman really got sick of her kids rushing into her office every time she was trying to finish a story, got sick of the kids constantly talking back and leaving their stuff all over, got sick of doing laundry instead of writing, and decided to sell all of her kids and just keep her stories?? Umm, no, I guess that wouldn't work either, huh? (Can you tell I've been havintg a time with the kids and writing lately? Did you notice I'm posting after midnight, and soon I will be off this blog and NOT in bed because the house is quiet and I brewed a pot of coffee and I am going to WRITE, dammit?!!?)
In all seriousness, my stories ARE my kids right now, because I am not yet to the stage where I am seriously considering selling anything. I am in the stage where I need to write. I'm not writing to a market, I'm not writing with publication in mind, I'm not writing for anyone else but me. But I really need to write. I want my stories to be good, because that's who I am. I can't do something half-assed. It has to be the best that I am capable of doing. That's why I'm so interested in the process. I want to do it right.
At some point, some day, if I feel that the time is right, I may consider sending a story someplace in the hopes of getting sold/published. If I am ever at that point, then I will have to make the transition from thinking of them as my kids to thinking of them as 'things'. However, I'm not there yet. They are still full of me, I am putting real tears into them, they are giving me aches and bruises and pains, just like my kids. So yeah, they are my kids too, at least for a while. Maybe some day, they will be 'just stories' that I can sell, but I'm just not there yet.
I know, bcb, you're probably right. But you can't say "Would you sell your kids?" because honestly, as a mom of six (today!) hellions, there are days when the answer to that would be "HELL YES I WOULD! Do you wanna buy them???"
Um, Dee? Are you implying there might be SEVEN of them tomorrow? What did you have for dinner last night?
Seriously, your point is well taken. I have often wanted to sell my kids to the highest (WTH, the lowest) bidder. My point, and I know you understood it, is that somewhere in the process (if your process is becomming published) you have to take emotion out of the equation and become a professional.
I did not mean to imply, nor should you ever believe, that your stories are "things" or that they are "just stories." They speak to you, and they depend on you to speak for them. That reconciliation, the melding of the creativity of the writer and the reality of business, is part of the magic. You have to find the fine line between the two. But they are not your children.
Now I really am going to bed.
bw
Oh dee, POOR BABY. I think you really needed that. Sounds like you are having a really bad day. Watch out drinking too much coffee at this hour. You won't get any sleep and then tomorrow will be another bad day.
orangehands please explain completely so that I can understand...what is 2nd person? I only know first and third. Thanks jen-t for trying to explain it to us but I don't get it. I need help. /,(
red htwln
How to write love notes.
bcb wrote... Um, Dee? Are you implying there might be SEVEN of them tomorrow? What did you have for dinner last night?
Nah, just that TODAY they are hellions. As opposed to yesterday when they were my wee ones, and the day before when they were darlings. Hopefully tomorrow, they will be KIDS again. But TODAY, they were the spawn of Satan. I guess that makes me the devil, huh?
Yep, that fits.
Thanks for the (((hugs))) SDCB. I needed it.
Now I'm really closing this blog and getting over to my wip. Really.
Right.
Now.
GG said...
Bit like walking in the hallways in high school when you're not supposed to be there. As long as you act like you're where you're supposed to be and like you're on a mission to do something for someone, no one questions you. If you look suspicious, everyone asks for your hall pass...
So true. I got backstage at the SF Opera House during opera season, also during ballet season (I can on no way possibly ever since about the age of ll pass for a ballerina), and onto a movie being shot on location. It must be that Saggitarius obliviousness - I don't expect to be stopped, and I'm not. Security guards and cops just tip their hats and wave me through. LOL! I should say that each time, I just happened to be there for something entirely different and was rather bumfuzzled when I realized what I was in the middle of. ;+)))
talpianna (SDCB, too) said...
How on earth do you write in second person???
It's sort of a narrative thing, like: "You're standing there, and this guy walks up and ask you for a dime. So, you tell him, "Hell, no!"
Think of foreign languages where there are three persons: FIRST: I/we; SECOND: you/you; THIRD:
he, she or it/they. What they're referring to is the subject of the sentences, really.
First person is when the narrator is telling the story from their POV ("I woke up screaming."). Third person is the most common, when the narrator isn't part of the story but is describing what happens to the characters ("He crossed the room.")
So, in second person, the narrator may be describing what happened to him/herself, but they're distancing themselves by using "you" ("You open the door and, boom, the guy on the stoop pops you in the eye.") I've made my examples very colloquial, but it doesn't have to be.
Stories as children - well, if you think of writing and editing and revising your book as raising your child and preparing him/here for life, then sending it out to editors and agents is sort of like sending your real child out to college or to look for a job. Right?
omtqrmh (green)
Oh my, Tal, quit reading my hand (?)
yjzgrxyu (red)
Yikes, Jenny. Zoe grabbed Robert, xuding yex unrelievedly.
part one:
dee: good luck. with the spawns of satan. a devil can handle writing, but little baby devils? *shudder*
JJ basically had it right. for the most part, 2nd person (and aren't there english and literature majors here? yet your depending on the girl you spent her day signing- as in ASL- notes in english class (7th)...or doing her nails (8th)...or painting (6th)...or ditching (9th-12th, but esp 12th)...umm, anyone see a pattern here?). so, 2nd person is when you substitute "you" for "i". there's been about seven (yes, i'm making up this number, but it is really small) books written in 2nd, and they all mostly suck. so here's an ex, since that is mostly how i learn:
You take a step back. Your surprised, green eyes widened. You throw your hands up, misjudging, trying to keep the knife from slashing you. Your voice let's out a squeak.
authors have put scenes from the eye of the killer in 2nd before. very rarely is a whole book written in 2nd. actual book example some of you may have: Lee Child, Running Blind, 2nd page. "You know the big problems will come after it. How do you make sure you get away from it? You use your knowledge."
i think Tami Hoag did it in her books Night Sins and Guilty as Sin for when the killers are talking, but don't have them to check.
anyways, hope that helped.
part 2:
me: yes, ideas can have values (all values are are ideas that were turned into something moral/immoral, however you define what it means to be moral/immoral). i think what gp was saying (or what i took it as), is that when you critique you are talking about style, character depth, why they have this instead of this. your not arguing with their idea about what being Muslim means to them.
which i don't think is censorship, BCB. my govt teacher (which if you haven't figured out yet i love and learnt so much from) did this test with us. i do not believe in censorship at all. so he asked me (and he knows i'm Jewish so he picked this example purposely because he figured it had added meaning to me...well, and because there was a recent article on it), should a neo-nazi group be allowed to parade down a street filled with Holocaust survivors. and i said yes.
not because i want to hear the nonsense they let spurt forth from them. and not because i think holocause survivors should have to deal with another group of selfish beep beeps. but because as offensive as i find them, some people find my beliefs equally offensive. and if i want to be able to have the right to march, then they get the right too.
and a lot of people in class disagreed with me. there should be lines you can't cross. and there should be lines. but who decides them? and what if they keep moving the line over until there's no need for a line because everything is under control.
i find Tom Likus disgusting. and my dad used to listen to him (which is a seperate issue). would i let my dad listen to him in the car with me? no. that is rude and unnecessary, because we both like the same music and there's plenty of other things we can listen to together. but would i ban that mysogynistic piece of shit? no. because then they'd ban my shows. and as much as i would like to be in control of where the line is, i'm not. so if i want my stuff, i have to put up with their stuff.
at the same time, since i'm so opinionated, i'm very vocal about my views on the beeper and hope more people listen to me than him and also hope he ends up in a burning pile in hell.
huh? hate him? what made you think that?
so anyways, back to the point i started with, it's not censorship to say whether you like something or not, or whether you agree with certain views, what's censorship is stopping those views from being allowed to be seen. so i can say that book is horrible because the heroine is a terrible role model, it's disgusting, your sending yada ya message, etc, etc. but in the end, do i have a right to keep it from being seen? no.
i just won't buy the books and maybe write thing about it and talk to others and so on.
oh, my favorite joke in the world? that there are places that ban Fahrenheit 451, which is about banning books.
and i always wondered, would a book really not burn at fahrenheit 450?
oh, zaza answered that 2nd person question. and so much simplier than me.
and sorry for writing that much. didn't mean to make a speech, just a short (ha ha) post.
me: i just wrote something about censorship.
mom: what'd you say, shut-up?
(your funny story for the day, BCB)
I know what the second person is, people; I just didn't know how you'd tell a story in it. Didn't Damon Runyon use it, come to think of it?
What do you think of a story narrated in the present tense?
Dee, if you're going to sell a kid, don't let it go for anything less than the ability to spin straw into gold--either literally, or figuratively (as a metaphor for writing). Come to think of it, that ought to be worth a couple of 'em.
OH: You're talking about the Skokie incident, which I remember well; it was the first split between liberals in general and the ACLU. I had mixed feelings; I didn't think that the Nazi march should be allowed, because they were not members of the community but outsiders. But that argument could have been used against civil rights marchers. What I thought should happen was that the CHRISTIAN neighbors and sympathizers who supported the Jews of Skokie should have lined the parade route, standing on the curb, holding hands, forming a human chain with their backs to the Nazis, singing "We Shall Overcome."
What about people who deny that the Holocaust ever happened? Should they be able to express their views freely, or should whoever reprints them clearly label them false? Or the claim that Jews make matzoh from the blood of Christian babies, and other idiocies?
One of the least savory aspects of THE DA VINCI CODE is that it treats the Protocols of the Elders of Zion, a notorious anti-Semitic forgery by the Czar's secret police, as a genuine document.
One last return to cake. I opened a Flickr account and posted there pics of two cakes that the Tigress decorated. I'm not sure if the links will work or not; they work for me, but not for a friend I sent them to:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/89144510@N00/224250418/
wedding
http://www.flickr.com/photos/89144510@N00/224250421/
Tile & Ceramic Society
dhxxna -- Dear husband Xavier, Xena's not available.
tal: yes! it pissed me off that no one held up signs in support of the neighbors. or done something. your idea would have been very nice to see.
and good thing you're here so you can tell me the names of things i'm talking about.
"Or the claim that Jews make matzoh from the blood of Christian babies"
LMAO. i never heard that one before.
the thing about the claim that the Holocaust never happened is that the people who are saying it aren't going to be interested in all the documentation that can show that it did happen. let them say their BS and people can show evidence and then others can decide for themselves. i guess i'm also saying for each thing we should present both sides as equally as possible and hope someone recognizes truth when it comes in millions of pieces of evidence.
what worries me is because of the digital age people will start to say "oh, it was just faked". well, they are starting to say that. the survivors are dying and soon there won't be anymore who can stand up and say "i went through this". their kids can, and since i think the majority of people (don't have any statistics but i hope the majority of the people...ok, at least a quarter of the people) know it happened they'll continue to fight those that say it didn't.
guess i wrote too much again. well, stop talking about things i care about then.
AND FOR THE LOVE OF GOD STOP TALKING ABOUT CAKE. DO YOU PEOPLE REALIZE HOW HUNGRY I HAVE BEEN SINCE THIS STARTED?
Interesting subjects to think about... I think it would work writing a chapter or a passage in 2nd person, but a whole book? I guess I'd go crazy trying to follow the storyline.
And concerning the "books are our children" topic: I suppose the answer is somewhere in the middle. When I see one of my copytexts published or a concept for an ad turned into a good-looking, smart advertisement, I feel about the same pride as I do when my kids excel in something (now you may go and scold me for being arrogant but the PR business is tough and you sometimes need these feelings to keep you going). And I'm sure it will be that way once I can lay hands on my printed book. I think you need to develop a personal relation to your work (should be the same for painters, sculptors, composers etc.) because it is a creative process and you can't just handle it like any given object you might produce working on a production line.
On the other hand, it is a product and we should treat it like one if we plan to sell it: work on it, improve it, make it as good as possible for the customer. Coming to think of it, that's why I only like creative work, I think - whether it's tailoring or cooking or, yes, writing. It always includes both, the creativity and the craft.
OH - I have just recently visited the holocaust memorial in Berlin and I think if somebody walks out there saying "oh, they made it up, it never happened" he just can't be helped. It was one of the most impressive moments I've had for a long time. And I felt it was similar to all the people who were there at the same time.
gzodybud - what could that be? A rose bred in Poland?
"Or the claim that Jews make matzoh from the blood of Christian babies"
This is historically known as the "blood libel," and was particularly prevalent in the Middle Ages--which is why, as a medievalist, I know about it. There are several (fictional) canonized children supposed to have been murdered by Jews. It made a great excuse for a pogrom; and considering that since Jews weren't allowed to own land or belong to craft guilds, they mostly dealt in gold, silver, gems, and other portables, which just might have had something to do with the popularity of massacring them.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blood_libel_against_Jews
As for Holocaust denial and the like, I emphatically do NOT believe that both sides should be presented "equally" and people should be allowed to make up their minds. I think that when they cite false data, or make it up as they go along, it should be pointed out not just by whoever is debating them, but by the editor of the paper, the moderator, or whoever is acting as authority.
PBS showed a program called HOLOCAUST ON TRIAL. A historian called David Irving had written a book casting doubt on it, and another historian had called him a Holocaust denier. He sued for libel, and the trial proved the accuser was right. This site has the complete transcript of the program, a re-enactment of the trial, with other background info. I strongly recommend reading the transcript, at least:
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/holocaust/
gimceor --Glamour-Geek, IM Cherries; evil Orangehands returns!
OH: Maybe I just haven't had enough caffeine yet, but I'm a bit lost. I wasn't saying that assigning value judgements to ideas in books was censorship, but that in my experience once a discussion turns to values it almost invariably leads to talk about censorship (for or against). Which can be perilous, as there are usually very strong feelings involved. And the topics tend to be controversial. So my comment was meant to be cautionary, not inflammatory.
Call me selfish, but I'm having such a wretched week at work, I didn't want to enter that fray. Or have that fray enter here.
I'm going to go back and re-read Louis descriptions of his cowboy GAM sons, with their dusters and gunbelts, hats pulled down low, steely eyes squinting at the horizon. Ok, so that was MY description. I can almost hear the creak of worn saddle leather and the thunder of horses' hooves on the hard packed ground, smell the hay and the sweat of a hard day's work.
Right. Hard day's work. I am so glad today is Friday.
bw
Tal asked ... What about people who deny that the Holocaust ever happened? Should they be able to express their views freely,
Able? WTF, it should be required. Better to have the ignorant and narrow-minded speak up so we know who they are. Half the battle is knowing your enemy.
1st person, 2nd person, 3rd person limited and omniscient ...
This is what I've figured out. First person uses the word I/we. 2nd person uses You. I think of it as the instructional voice. 3rd limited is when the narrator is always looking over the character's shoulder seeing only what they see. 3rd omniscient is when God is telling the story - he sees all and knows all.
Christina re opinions The written word has power and an intelligent person will think carefully before weilding that pen. But if you really believe an idea is wrong you have an obligation to spread the word. Otherwise the world remains ignorant.
Dee Keep Gert. She's mostly finished.
CMS Dee and her DH were the ones with the commute home. They *said* they were travelling by motorcycle, but maybe Dee wanted a break from the kids.
ynvmlt: You never verified my lost title.
(((((BCB)))))
Had to get that out of the way, as it seemed necessary. Now move on along there, Little Missy, and go check out your cowboys! Lasso one up if you feel the need. I'm sure they won't mind a bit!
OH, it's been said before, but it bears repeating... you sound VERY mature. It took me a while to get to the "if i censor them, then they can censor me" attitude. Basically though, I feel the very same way you do. As much as some people may piss me off, and as much I can't imagine why any person would want to see/listen to/read them, they have the right to express their opinions. If I try to take that right away, who's going to stop someone else from taking it from me? It's just such a slippery slope.
However, I think that the media, in general, needs to be more selective about who they give air time. I don't think it is 'censorship' for an owner of a tv station to say "No, that is inflammatory and hurtful to X group, and I will NOT play that on my station". Then, if people don't agree with his views, they don't watch his channel. It's not about censoring people. It's about being responsible for what you put on the air. Anyhow, I could go on, and on, and on, and...well, I have other things to do today, and I'm already running late b/c I had to stop in here first...
Thank
God
It's
Friday!!
nwhed - new head (spelled jen-Ts way. Def - what you need after a night of writing until 4am, then getting up at 7am with the wee ones, knowing you have to work from 4pm until after midnight.)
Because of the "Public" airwaves, TV and radio, at least TV legally have to provide "airtime" to opposing views.
The stations can do "Editorials" to give the opinion of that particular station. As long as time is provided for opposing views.
MCB
You are so right about the sweat in working with horses. There's nothing like the smell of hay, especially new mown. I like to sit around after feeding and listen to the horses munching away.
jlsof...blue
Jenny loves silence of finished
A couple additions to the wonderful discussions:
Critique:
When using the compliment sandwich or other similar tactics, try to make sure the weight of your compliments can balances the weight of your critique. Otherwise people still tend to walk grumbling or feeling like a complete failure. Some people do that regardless, but trying to keep an even +/- balance usually keeps the discussion open to future positive interaction. It also helps to state your opinion as a “Have you considered?” question.
OTT Examples for the lady who asks your opinion of how she looks:
Bad Example: You’re shoes are lovely, but you have a face only a mother could love.
Good Example: You have a lovely sense of style, but have you ever considered using a highlighter in your make-up routine?
(I’m avoiding the academic route here because I not ready go back to class yet. How do the breaks keep getting shorter?)
I think most realize this, but I thought it worth a comment.
Censorship:
Presenting two equal arguments and allowing people to choose their side seems like a good idea, but it’s improbable in reality. Everybody comes into the argument with their own baggage, and people are going to relate to the argument that fits in with the life choices they’ve already made. It’s very hard to change. People do change for many reasons, but it rare that the change occurs because they are presented with two equal arguments.
I agree that people's remarks shouldn't be censored, but that moderators and commentators need to be more careful about identifying untruth in arguments, and that the attempt to be "unbiased" has led to equal weight being given to unequal merit.
For example, there is a lot of uncertainty over exactly WHAT is going to happen as the climate warms due to human activity. Among actual scientists who don't have a vested interest, there is essentially no debate that global warming is occurring, yet we still find "both sides" being given equal time in some situations. Yes, you can find a scientist who doesn't believe global warming is occurring. You can also find one who doesn't believe that HIV causes AIDS and, if you look hard enough, one who doesn't believe humans visited the moon, or believes the earth is flat. Equal time is for legitimate disputes over what's going on, not for any whacked out fringe group.
They can talk, but no one is obliged to provide them with print or airwaves until they can show some legitimate evidence to support their view.
BCB: no one is going to make you use foreign characters! I think the word I originally used that made me ask was naïve, which I thought looked really weird without the umlaut, and now that I've figured out the overall scheme, I like to do it so I won't forget how. I hope your weekend brings an improvement to everything going on with you.
Talpianna: thanks for posting AgTigress' cakes - very elegant! Even the roses and leaves, which are fairly standard cake ornaments (not that mine ever looked like anything) seemed superior in shape.
itdqp: idiotic talkers deserve quiet (i.e. empty) places
Louis: I think there's some confusion. BCB like cowboys. I like uniforms.
Lori gave the example ... Bad Example: You’re shoes are lovely, but you have a face only a mother could love.
You forgot to include "bless your heart."
Lori also commented on censorship... Presenting two equal arguments and allowing people to choose their side seems like a good idea, but it’s improbable in reality. Everybody comes into the argument with their own baggage ...
But they are still choosing, even if their respective baggage is factored in. Some people will cling to their baggage, but others will weigh said baggage against the new data and may come to a new conclusion. Or may not. But its still a choice.
Diane said ... They can talk, but no one is obliged to provide them with print or airwaves until they can show some legitimate evidence to support their view.
Which is why a responsible and legitimate media is more important than ever. I use legitimate cautiously to distinguished the less biased news media from the torrent of 'my side is right and everyone else is an idiot' blogsites out there.
On the subject of foreign characters: I cheat. I type such words on a MS Word doc first and then copy into the comment.
louis sez: You are so right about the sweat in working with horses. There's nothing like the smell of hay, especially new mown. I like to sit around after feeding and listen to the horses munching away.
See! See! He's oppressing us! Did you see him oppressing us!? He's taunting us with his GAM sons...
Actually, he was just talking about horses and work and hay, but my brain went to his GAM sons doing the work and then sitting relaxing and... :)
Um. BCB? Is is hot in here?
Louis, that sounds lovely. We'll all be over to listen to that nice calm munching sound tomorrow. What time is feeding? Just make sure you get a lot of watermelon for this horde!
I love this group. I love that we can talk nonsense and also serious.
WRT censorship: when I lived in Bowling Green, OH, the KKK decided they were going to have a rally in each county seat in Ohio. Many of the local shopkeepers closed their shops that day because they did not want to do business with those who supported such views. Signs went up all over town and on cars: "Do Not Attend", because the worst thing you can do to a group that's trying to attract attention is to ignore them. And in both Bowling Green and Toledo, there were counter-events in other parts of town which were family-centered peace rallies--both of which were much better attended. After the event in Bowling Green, when all the KKK had gone away (and there were more police than either KKK or viewers. Yay!), the community reclaimed the court house area where the rally had been by holding a candlelight peace vigil.
It was really nice to see a community come together, not to censor those who had opposing views, but to peacefully show how many disagreed with those views and would unify to protest them.
Because of the "Public" airwaves, TV and radio, at least TV legally have to provide "airtime" to opposing views.
The stations can do "Editorials" to give the opinion of that particular station. As long as time is provided for opposing views.
MCB
You are so right about the sweat in working with horses. There's nothing like the smell of hay, especially new mown. I like to sit around after feeding and listen to the horses munching away.
jlsof...blue
Jenny loves silence of finished
dear blogger
qrxxi...blue
quick Robert, "xx" indeed
Didn't think the first one "took"...at least blogger said out of service..so I came back later and resent
Oh well.
thjineb...red
that's how Jenny inputs , now everything blends....or whatever
G-G: I believe that constitutes taunting, don't you?
Believe me, Louis, the first one took. [grin]
Apparently even blogger is flustered at the thought of all you hard working sweaty cowboys. As a matter of fact, it appears you've sent blogger into a swoon -- it is unresponsive and doesn't seem to have a pulse.
bw
McB prompted… You forgot to include "bless your heart."
Oops. I just can’t get the hang of that heart-blessing thing.
McB said… they are still choosing, even if their respective baggage is factored in.
Absolutely. People need to hear arguments and choices need to be made. But do you think arguments can be considered equal if you factor things like baggage and perspective?
My belief has been that if someone is presented with two arguments that appear equal to them, they have a tendency to choose the side the fits with previous decisions they have made. Arguments that appear unequal tend to change minds more readily. Was that just confusing? I’m so not ready for school.
Got any available cowboys my age to distract me, Louis? Just hay smelling is not going to do it for me today.
Lori: Since all his GAM cowboy sons are roughly my age, it makes sense that the five or six male grandchildren he told us about are roughly your age.
So yes, Louis, please taunt-- um, tell Lori about the next generation of GAMs you've got out there. Do they work on the ranch, too?
bw
blogger keeps breaking!
thanks for the info, tal.
to clarify, in 2nd person you can still use the word "they". "They look at you, judging, and you turn your head away." not sure if someone wasn't sure or not.
dee: i do agree that people should...not censor, but watch what they are saying and why they are saying it and where they are saying it.
news stations: we used to get some Canadian news channels for free and i seemed to like them a lot better as whole. anyways, my mom used to watch one where (and someone can tell me the name) it was women news casters and they just sat there and went through the news as they took off their tops and put them back on over and over again. my mom said it had the best news she ever heard...even if you did have to watch women in different states of undress to get it.
MCB: i used to do that for spelling. now i look it up in "google: define: (type word in)". yep, i cheat for spelling. i suck at spelling. of course i cheat or every other post would be "OH, you misspelled ___"
Blogger hates me. I think we may have to sacrifice OH to get things back to normal.
Just to add a bit to the censorship/Holocaust issue--I was was watching one of the nighttime news programs this week and they have a series on called The Outsiders, about people on the fringes of society. On of the shows focused on these twin girls, about 12 or so in age, who were up and coming singers in their 'genre'. Turns out they are the poster children for neo-nazi/white supremisict crap. These two sweet blonde angelic looking girls were spewing the most awful vileness during the interview and this obviously was also part of their music. They also believed that the Holocaust never happened and that Hitler was a super guy. Looking at them just made me so sad that any parents would fill their children's heads with such hatred.
I think it was also the same night that the Law and Order: SVU episode about white supremicists also aired. Maybe it was the way for the network to provide their own editorial on the subject.
rbcqteu--something about robbing Jacques Cousteau
lunhoiker--Luna's profession (Luna from the Stephanie Plum series)
uzsrz--and abusers
that anon was me, OH.
thanks Christina, thanks.
i remember reading something about the blond girls. their songs are disgusting.
the kitchen smells like wet, canned dog food, which is impossible because the last time we opened a can of wet dog food was in '98.
GG--Thank you so much for the advice and encouragement. So, basically, fake it til you make it. (No, not that way, BCB and Lori!) ;) I’ll give it a try. (No, not like that, get your minds out of the gutter!)
If you ever have academic advising withdrawals, you can come to me. I can use all the help I can get. :)
No problem, OH. ;) You know the youngest ones always go first in these situations.
robqvmoi--Rob QV(C), moi?
Lori queried ... But do you think arguments can be considered equal if you factor things like baggage and perspective?
Baggage is a separate thing and has nothing to do with the strength of an argument. Its a definite influence but is something that people choose to cling to or look past. Some people will choose to cling to their baggage like the last lifeboat in the ocean. Doesn't make the other side's argument any weaker.
And yes unequal arguments will change minds faster. If someone drops quarters on both sides of a scale and one side is obviously heavier, well of course you will choose that side. However, emotional baggage is akin to loading one side of the scale with lead plugs. It might weigh more but it isn't necessarily worth more. Let the buyer beware - they should have taken a close look.
Whew! All this serious discussion ... I must be in a parallel universe!
Blogger hates me, too. The one afternoon this week my boss is AWOL and blogger goes down (not like that, geez).
You all will be glad to hear, I'm sure, that my boss was considerate enough to give me a To Do list before he left. Normally, I would find this mildly amusing, since he has only a vague idea of what I actually do all day.
But how irritating is it going to be on Monday when he asks whether I've completed the items on his list and I say "Yep. You bet."
And seeing as how I'm really very NICE, I will not tell him I did it all four days ago. So he will preen about the place all day, congratulating himself for his superior management skills.
MCB: Would you please ask around your office, find out what exactly constitues justifiable homicide?
Sigh.
Louis, please tell us a story?
Sorry, I'm just not in the mood for serious discussion. You all go ahead, though. I'm listening.
bw
Dearest BCB, you get a poor baby. And let us know if you need shovels. As to your question, we don't do that kind of law. However if in disposing of the body you illegally dump it counter to state and or federal regulations involving hazardous waste ... let me know.
(((BCB)))I wish I had a funny story to tell you. Almost the weekend.
I'm reading the serious comments and nodding my head but don't have anything pertinent to add.
xdbbcurq that's insane
Well, since I believe it is always hazardous to waste human potential with such flagrant disregard for common sense...
And geez, I don't want a "poor baby" I want to get the heck out of here and have two days off where no one tells me to do something I've already done. While getting paid an obscene amount of money to do so.
Grrr..
bw
ME asked can an idea have value? No, an idea is neutral. The implementation of it can have value: I think I’m going to slap him: Neutral. I slapped him: Probably negative, unless he disagreed with me!
Bon Cheri Bomb said ...close to censorship . Yup. Notice I used kettle and YEX as examples, non-controversial among CB’s. For me, holocaust, global warming, etc. elicit too much emotion to use as examples of value vs idea. (I KNOW the right answer, and anyone against me is going to HE##!)
Who wrote Trinity? Sounds like I need to read it.
OH, et. al. have not convinced me about writing in second person. OH said ...It's sort of a narrative thing, like: "You're standing there, and this guy walks up and ask you for a dime. So, you tell him, "Hell, no!"
I disagree. 1st person is saying these things to 2nd person. This stuff is in 1st's mind, NOT in 2nd’s mind. Do I make sense? I don’t think you can write in second person. I’m willing to be persuaded. Try again.
OTOH, OH explained my value vs idea well. Ya think maybe she’s gonna be our next Dalai Lama or Pope? Jewish, of course. I think so. She scares me, she’s so thoughty and yet so young. At her age I thought only about boys. (OH: 63=6 fingers/decade, pointing with right hand; so not enough fingers.)
AgTigress’ cakes are truly works of art!
Ah, it's Friday. Time for supper out. Never cook on Fridays!
GP informed us ... OH explained my value vs idea well. Ya think maybe she’s gonna be our next Dalai Lama or Pope? Jewish, of course. I think so. She scares me, she’s so thoughty and yet so young.
SSSHHHHHH. We're trying to keep her humble.
colognegrrl said...
Interesting subjects to think about... I think it would work writing a chapter or a passage in 2nd person, but a whole book? I guess I'd go crazy trying to follow the storyline.
I've seen it work quite well in a short story, but a whole novel??? It works well for someone talking themselves through a process, e.g., first, you hold the red wire with the needlenosed pliers, then, you pick up the wire cutters... ;+) Something where it's tense or the person is otherwise having trouble concentrating.
AND...
I think you need to develop a personal relation to your work (should be the same for painters, sculptors, composers etc.) because it is a creative process and you can't just handle it like any given object you might produce working on a production line.
That's it exactly. When I used to paint, I was so in love with what I was doing, I didn't think I'd ever be able to let someone buy it. But when you've finished the painting, there really is a sense of closure, perhaps, like your interaction is done, so selling it seems like a logical next step. I think that's very much parallel to my feelings about things I write.
Talpianna, I know you know what second person is. Sheesh. But you weren't the only one who asked. And you have beautiful babies. Funny, but I had a dream about kittens last night that looked like your Aliera. Kinda spooky.
agtigress, your cakes are beautiful. I'd never have the patience for that. Lovely work.
Louis said...
Because of the "Public" airwaves, TV and radio, at least TV legally have to provide "airtime" to opposing views.
It seems like I've heard that the stations have to provide time, but it doesn't have to be free time. So, if the freaks have the money to buy air time, then they can have their say. Unfortunately, usually the opposing side doesn't have that kind of money to spend, so they are unable to excercise that right. Personally, I think if a station knowingly airs inflammatory material, they should be willing to provide free air time to the opposing view.
(((BIG HUGS))) for all the beleagered CBs. Hope the weekend gives you a break and some fun.
tfdjguul (green) crikey!
To feel delicious, Jenny gave ululating ululations lovingly.
bcb sez: I want to get the heck out of here and have two days off where no one tells me to do something I've already done. While getting paid an obscene amount of money to do so.
Well, if you find another job like that, let me know. I could use one of those. Maybe with a side of GAM cowboy, though cowboys have never been my thing before. I'm willing to be open-minded here... ;)
christina sez: So, basically, fake it til you make it.
I grew up with academic parents, so I learned early: that's what almost everyone is doing, regardless of their status! The ones I really have no respect for are the ones who, 10+ years later, are still using their old research and haven't developed anything at all and haven't read anything new.
I learned this, too: The REALLY good ones are the ones who are interested in educating everyone, regardless of age or educational level. Because I grew up around universities, I met 4 Nobel prize winners in the sciences before I was 18. They were all interested in what everyone had to say and in everyone's questions, whether it was a 3-year-old child or a 53-year-old colleague. Everyone at my first year of university went on and on about how my chem professor was going to get a Nobel. The one time I asked him a question, his attitude was "Why have they BURDENED me with these freshmen? It is a WASTE of my talents." I knew he'd never get one. He hasn't.
Meanwhile Glenn Seaborg (lead of the team that discovered Plutonium, Berkelium, Californium, etc.) was the sweetest, nicest guy and when I was 17 said "Oh, if you're interested just make an appointment with my secretary and come talk to me." I never did (too scared because he was amazing to me), but he was just the kindest, most good humored man. And when he died the Economist ran an obituary in which everyone basically said "He was the sweetest fellow and had time for everyone." Another guy who eventually got a Nobel in chemistry used up all his demo materials for his lecture showing me things in his lab, then had to order new stuff when he realized that he'd basically just kerbolixed his lecture for the day. But I was about 8 and I thought that stuff was SO COOL (I still do).
So if a 5-year-old asks you about your research, have as much time for her as you do for students or professors. And then when you're written up in every science journal and all the major newspapers, we'll be able to say "we knew her when!" And all your charrybaunts and cherrybuncles will be so proud and happy for you!
BCB: umm, while trying to stay away from your growl, i am curious. what do you do?
gp said "OH said ...It's sort of a narrative thing, like: "You're standing there, and this guy walks up and ask you for a dime. So, you tell him, "Hell, no!"
i didn't say that. your thinking of someone else. i used the example "You take a step back. Your surprised, green eyes widened. You throw your hands up, misjudging, trying to keep the knife from slashing you. Your voice let's out a squeak."
although, gp, i think your example does count as 2nd person. if it was third it would be "he/she" and if it was first it would be "me/i". it would be "so i told him, "hell no""
anyways, just read the book you guys. or read a chapter. because it is very interesting to see this style so well done. Damage by AM Jenkins
and you guys, i'm blushing. that's so sweet. it brings a new level to the "kill OH" chant. "kill OH because she's so thoughtful". yep, i like it.
g-g: very true. besides, little kids are a lot smarter than everyone believes them to be because they have a certain mind set they haven't grown out of and that mind set is amazing. and always explain to whoever is interested in what you know because you never know if what you say will start the spark of something amazing, even if it's just curiousity.
Lori....Bless your heart!
Three of my grandsons are in the thirties. One is married...has our only great grandaughter...she is three.
Our daughter has two boys...12 and 14.
The eldest is into waterpolo, the youngest is into baseball...made "All-Stars" this year. (also last year).
Both do quite well.
tried posting this earlier...blogger struck
fmvgexhv...blue
from my view "gex" has virtue
All right, Louis, now you are just being mean. You're trying to incite all the women on this blog into a frenzy. Two unmarried grandsons in their 30s? Are they cowboys too? If so, I may swoon...and then battle Lori for one of them. ;)
GG--What an amazing childhood! I am the only one in my family to go to grad school, so I am a bit out of the loop about academia sometimes.
And your comment: The ones I really have no respect for are the ones who, 10+ years later, are still using their old research and haven't developed anything at all and haven't read anything new.--I have, sadly, already encountered that and too late to save myself the pain. The person was a former advisor.
I now have to deal with a very ornery cat who is mad at me because I will not let him back outside (it's too dark now).
ah, denim-clad butts. what a picture.
tal, on an unrelated subject (though it's a book, how unrelated can it be) i told you Anne Bishop was coming out with Belladonna in march. that's still true. but i wanted to clarify- i found out it's not the 2nd book in a trilogy but the last book in a duology/dilogy. oh, and she's coming out with a book in the Jewels world in 08. (not sure i said that or not). anyway, back to the program:
denim clad butts. yum.
Louis you are such a guy. I mean that in the nicest way -- and I won't even bless your heart. Lori, you want more details you're on your own. Louis already thinks I'm crazy and won't talk to me anymore.
OH: Let's see whether I can channel Louis here:
Work for company that sells things.
In two states.
In charge of the money.
Lots of it.
Pay taxes. File reports.
How was that? Basically I work with numbers all day when I'd rather be playing with words. I know, what was I thinking?
And when have I ever growled at you? I might bite Jen once in a while, but I never growl at CB's.
It's so good to be home. Time to feed the animals -- they do not sound like horses when they eat, nor do they eat hay. Well, the dog would if I had any. He has also been known to eat rocks.
bw
oseun: yep, that's how Jen spells that thing between CA and Maui
Geez, I go no internet for a few hours and I have BCB biting me and making fun of the way I spell. Then again, she does that all the time!
I'm sooooooo frustrated. I'm writing an anthology and not only have I never written one before, it's a "humorous" anthology. What the hell do I know about writing funny? i like to kill people (not literally people, put away the shovels, geez). I'm basically almost done with it, but I don't think it's funny, I think it's stupid and should be censored, or maybe recieve lots of negative critisim. No seriously, I think it's sucks and it's not funny. My life might be humorous to you all, but I can't seem to write it. And now my head hurts.
Okay, off to cook diner to the people I share a house with.
nqbhzqk - not quivering, bob has zeck, quivering kayak
Jen-t--this probably won't be much help, but in case I'm wrong....Jenny contributed an essay to a book on writing comedy, but it's not in print as far as I know. I think you can find it on amazon by searching her name. Take a good hard look at "Tell Me Lies," because even though it's a funny book, nothing that happens in it is overtly funny. You might find something in her non-fiction essays---check jennycrusie.com.
amc - thanks. I might go do that. When I was first approached about doing this I thought it would be fun and the idea I had is funny, but I just don't think I'm pulling it off. Sigh, the monsters are telling me the grilled cheese is buring - so flip the suckers, geez. Do I have to do everything?
Jen, don't get discouraged. Comedy IS harder. There is such a fine line between funny ha ha and funny stupid. The problem is Jenny makes it look easy. I would say stop trying to be deliberately funny and start channeling your inner snark. Once you get in the groove it will come to you.
jiiwrn: Jen is indicating wryly rung nerves.
mcb - "channeling my inner snark". My snark just makes me look bitchy. I know about the stupid funny stuff, that is what I'm trying to avoid. Thanks. I've done something I've never done before, I skipped a scene and jumped right to the sex scene. Yep, there is a sex scene in this very short story. While sex scenes can be hard for me to write, I know how I want this scene to play out, so maybe I can go back and fix the rest. Thanks guys. I feel better. Just needed to vent.
glamour geek Trinity was written by Leon Uris.
orangehands DH says that was a British tv station that had the female newscasters that took off their tops. Heck, Canada would never allow that to happen. It is because of our staid British roots.
jen-t I think you are very funny. You write funny here all the time. Give us a sample of your anthology and we will tell you.
red pojefpk Polish sausage
blue lcugliv
Lately Crusie usually gives late interviews 2 View.
JenT I really admire you for trying something different. And I can so identify with your comments about "the people you share a house with" Amazing how kids will watch food burn and then come and tell you about it instead of fixing it. Kind of like mine watching the dog circle at the door and then coming in to say "I think Tracker had to go out. He just peed on the carpet. GRRR
BCB I read your earlier post to mean that your boss got an obscene amount of money to tell people to do what they'd already done not that you were paid an obscene amount.
JenT have fun with your sex scene.
That sound you just heard was Jen's editor having a stroke.
Jen, you remind me of DD18 who, when faced with something just a wee bit more challenging than she was expecting in school, would have a pure fit, telling me how she was going to fail, she could never do it, it was just too hard. And then she'd come home with the highest grade in the class. Even the teachers called her "curve breaker."
As a matter of fact, she called me last night, complaining that her Spanish Lit class was too hard (she knows this after only one day). She said it is just like a regular Lit class, only in Spanish, and they're starting off with poetry. I said, well won't it be a nice feeling of accomplishment when you ace the class? I won't repeat what she said, but I'm not worried. About either one of them.
Jen, the premise for your story is funny all by itself (we talked about it in Atlanta) and I KNOW you can write it. [I'm trying to persuade her to let me read it, but she says there are a few spelling mistakes... since when does that matter?]
bw
Robin: Geez. If there was any doubt then guess I really need to work on my writing skills, especially my ability to speak clearly. Yes, the boss is the one making the big bucks. But I sign his paycheck.
To quote Jenny: Once again, life is unfair.
bw
Jen, listen to the others. We know you are funny. But I think your idea of jumping ahead to another scene sounds like a good one. Go write a scene you are more comfortable with that will help you establish your voice and hear your characters.
I'm rereading DON'T LOOK DOWN. Nearly finished in fact. I'm at the part where they find out the ghost has Pepper. Reading this and reading Bob's other books has been an eye opener. He rocks with the action stuff a la BOL. But reading that would give you no clue to how funny he can write.
It would be interesting BOB to get your take on how writing DLD and Agnes are different from your other books. I mean other than the partnership thing.
Only G-G answers CC's ominous new yell.
SDCB/robin S - thank you for the kudos. Talk about stepping out of your box.
BCB - School hasn't even started my daughter is already telling me that her Honors Social Studies class will be too hard. My 12 year old thinks school should outlaw test because it pigeon holds the way a child thinks. Yep, this is my life.
BCB - check your mailbox by around ten.
nglcbdgs - nope, not going there.
I am now watching a documentary on sharks on PBS. Thought of you, Jen-T. Good luck with the writing. I have no doubt you will pull through and it will turn out great. Just needs a little more blood, sweat and tears--which I am sure you have in abundance. ;) Take care.
MCB - here's the thing - I think Bob is very funny. I laughed out loud during DLD in JT's POV. I think the problem is what I think is funny and what other's think is funny might be two different things. In the Rock, Hawkins made me laugh a few times, and he's a pretty serious guy. I'm a dark person, with a dark voice, so I don't think it's the funny part I'm struggling with, it's the lightness of the story. make sense? Because thanks to you, I might have had a light bulb moment. Okay, have to read kid a book, then back to writing - thank you people! When this anthology gets published - it will be dedicated to you all!
yxsop - the lights cane on.
And while you're at it BOB, or JENNY, some of us would also like to know how writing Agnes is different from writing DLD and what, if anything, you're doing differently this time. What worked, what didn't.
Of course, we already know that having the CB's to pester the heck out of you while writing Agnes is making a HUGE difference. I figure we're probably the only thing holding back the dark night of insanity.
Oh goody, I need to go sharpen up my scalpel now. It's still a little discolored from the last time when I didn't clean it properly. Christina, don't know for sure about the sweat and tears, but there is about to be some blood.
bw
BCB wrote: Christina, don't know for sure about the sweat and tears, but there is about to be some blood.
Um...that's good to know, BCB.
Psst! OH, you might want to make a run for it. Remember what I said before, the youngest ones always go first.
apkclg -- the noise OH makes when BCB finally gets to her
BCB - clean off that knife, I sent you an e-mail.
Jen - I am laughing out loud reading DLD too. Bob's scenes - well the ones that don't include knives and eyeballs (shudder) are very funny. Just saying, if I had read BOL first, I never would have thunk he could be funny. Clearly our GAM is a very versatile guy. And I'm betting you are too. You just have to find your own path there.
koakstud: Do I even have to spell this one out?
scope dope: British? well, i trust your DH more than my mom or my memory so ok, British.
BCB: you didn't growl at me. you growled in general. remember, you said "Grrrr".
JJ: ummm, i can be a beta reader. and i suck at spelling as much as you, i'm just better at hiding it, so no need to be embarassed.
that's all. but use others suggestions and maybe if your looking for a "lightness" (and i get that, i have the dark humor...and the dark writing. my fist story, sheesh i ruined that heroine. i mean, talk about tortured. if you can help it, don't ever get caught by a serial killer in one of my stories) anyways, but maybe play happy, up-beat, light music? music helps put me in the mood (stop it gutter brains), so maybe works for you too?
and christina, i must wonder...is tal paying you?
Christina: LOL! I was talking about the chapters Jen is about to send me for, um, critiquing. She said she'd only send it if I promised to not be nice.
bw
BCB "If I promised to not be nice"
Umm, shouldn't that read "If I promised NOT TO BE nice." Okay, so normally I don't mind a split-infintative - use them all the time, this is one that bugs me. (That is a split infinitive, right?)
To boldly go where no CB has gone before....
flnimj - BCB cursing me out and taking a knife to my manuscript.
"To boldly go where no CB has gone before...."
i don't think that place exists. but have fun trying to find it...
BCB? not be nice? NO. it's impossible. never gonna happen.
ever.
uh-huh...
OH - remember, I've met BCB in person. OH - e-mail me, I seem to have missplaced your e-mail, which I think at one time I had.
Going to bed.
Do you want me to edit this thing or come back over here and fix my sentence structure? I'm blaming all that HS French I took -- screwed up my spelling, too.
It's been a long day, I've reached that stage where incomprehensibility is a given. Lucky you. I might even be able to understand some of this stuff you wrote...
...not be nice, be not nice, to be or to not be...
bw
BTW, it's really funny.
bw
Arguing:
One of the first rules I learned about producing an argument was “know your audience.” If the baggage of life experiences we carry with us does not hold value in strengthening an argument, this would not be so important. The structure of an argument may be considered strong by any completely objective observer. If an audience with diverse backgrounds is presented this structurally sound argument, you may see that the same argument holds more strength with a person who relates to it and less strength with one who does not.
A person with a better understanding of their audience can win over people just because they took more time to relate to them. Which brings us back to buyer beware. I believe learning critical thinking skills may be even more helpful than trying to ensure people are presented with equal arguments. People need to learn to distinguish weight from value in order to survive the bombardment of both gold and lead choices they are given throughout life.
Jen-T: Keep going. You’ll get there. Your incredible purpose and drive in life will force you to find a way to makes your funny voice work. It doesn’t hurt that BCB got her scalpel out either.
BCB about Louis: I appreciate the work you’ve done getting me this far. I shall now move into the flattery stage and try to find out more, but I don’t know what my chances are. He has already blessed my heart.
Louis, you god among men, I adore your comments. They are a poetry that runs deep, saying so much with so few words. I would be appreciative if you would consider dedicating a few more verses to your single grandsons in their thirties. Some things you might consider including: Do they have your way with words and horses? What about those dusters and chaps? How do they feel about women who have walked on the earth for a few less years, but are ageless in spirit? Whatever you may choose to say, I’m sure it will be poetically captivating.
Christina: Dibs.
lori: (re: the beginning): i like what you said.
JJ: will send one now. (hee hee i think i get to read some of it)
BCB--Glad I could entertain.
OH--I am the youngest in my family and am constantly getting the short end of the stick. It is now my turn to pass it on and seeing as I am trapped in my mother's house in the woods without transportation, all on my lonesome (mom works second shift), I feel the need to dish it out. It's ok though, since I know you can handle it. ;)
Lori wrote: Christina: Dibs.
LOL! If I remember correctly, I am a few years older than you, so if Louis's grandsons prefer a CB with just a couple more years on her, I need to make myself available. ;)
winb--This means that BCB, Bryan, Btuda or another 'B' CB will win something.
christina: i am a younger child, i always have to be dished...actually, i normally gave back better than i got so...i've been very peaceful for the last few years though...ok, dish away. i'll let you be.
you tal-like creature.
Jen-T: OK, you've had your fun. Don't you think it's time to 'fess up? And shame on MCB and Dee, for being so easily fooled by her impersonation of Bryan. Didn't you get a clue when you noticed the resemblance to Regis Philbin? You've been taken by an Ionian practical joke!
Incidentally, Jen, what IS it your people want of us? Just to play on our golf courses and hockey rinks, or do you also want to stick Flex-Straws in our ears and suck out our brains? And were you behind the plot to declare Pluto a non-planet?
dsxjlia --the scientific name for Jen-T's spelling problem
The PBS of one of those Central Asian formerly Soviet republics
Lori preached ... People need to learn to distinguish weight from value in order to survive the bombardment of both gold and lead choices they are given throughout life.
That's good. That's really good.
The rest of us write comments. Louis writes Haiku.
And OMG you won't believe what my verification is. I DID NOT MAKE THIS UP!
mcbbfi: Margarita Cherrybomb bows, famously impressed.
or: MCB being fabulously impressive
or: MCB becomes fatuously impaired
or: MCB believes famous impressionists
or: ... ok, I'm going to bed now.
Don't stay up too late and please remember to let the dog out once more before you go to bed. Oh yeah, leave the light on over the stove for those CB's on the other side of the world so they don't trip over anything when they come in.
bw
Did JenT take over the planet Pluto...is that why it's not a planet anymore?
To inquiring young ladies...both grandsons have charming girlfriends....
They're not into horses, although have been known to help around feeding if they are here.
MCB...congrats on the verification...very unusual.
eidrjzu...red
early in desire, Robert, Jenny zipunder
Just as well. I don't really want to live in California right now anyway. I've got my eye on NC.
Louis: I do really adore your poetry here. That was completely sincere. Blessings on your lovely family.
Christina: Ummm, looks like I called it little late this time, but for future reference: Woe to the person who has no respect for the Dibs or the DOUBLE DOG DARE. I didn't make that rule but there it is. WOE.
McB: Couldn't have done that sermon without you. Just continued on what you said :)
nvwebajx: Now various women exclaim, "Bob and Jenny = eXcellence!"
christina sez: GG--What an amazing childhood! I am the only one in my family to go to grad school, so I am a bit out of the loop about academia sometimes..
Amazing. Well. That's one word for it. :) I think "twisted and demented" is probably more accurate...
I maintain that my generation (all in our 30s+ now) is rebelling against our elders by failing to get any doctorates. I think all of us stopped at master's (well, I'm ABD, but, you know. Whatever.) My parents and the parents of the cousins all have alphabet soup: MD, PhD, EdD, JD, etc.
I was going to COMPLAIN to Lori and Christina for being GREEDY because there ARE other CBs here in their 30s (ahem!) and some of us ARE in California (!), but since Louis has said that his sons are spoken for the point is, well...Moot!
HA! I crack myself up!
Go, Jen-T, you can do it!
louis said...
To inquiring young ladies...both grandsons have charming girlfriends....
Oh well, I'm moving to Scotland anyways.
Sigh. Mentioning reading DLD makes me sad. I packed it and most of my other fiction books up so that I can say I started packing. I'm moving out of my current apartment next week into someplace temporary, until it's time to move across the pond. Took me forever to find a place that was both short-term and where I could bring by cat.
The move is turning into a logistical nightmare. Most of my stuff is going with my younger sister on Tuesday, who is conveniently moving to start grad school. However, my bedroom stuff is going to sit in storage for a few days because I can't move in until Friday, at the earliest. Everything else (books and other collectable that can't go to Scotland immediately) is going to my parents for long term storage.
And related to nothing, I totally wacked the heck out of my knee earlier this evening. It hurt so darn bad that I wondered for a minute if I'd broken it. I now have a lovely goose egg on my knee, which I didn't think was possible. I think I need to ice it some more.
And to go full circle and make this comment relevant to the blog topic :), today my advisor critiqued the hell out of the draft of a paper my officemate and I wrote. Nothing I wasn't expecting, actually. The work and writing have definite weaknesses, I was just running out of steam from too many late nights. Sigh.
I've got to start getting regular sleep again.
For whomever mentioned the global warming, according to the paper the other night scientists believe that global warming in Antartica has slowed to a stop and that the ozone layer could close within sixty years. I kid you not. This is not something to joke about.
Having trouble typing and am in pirate phase with eye patch on so I am going to bed. Read you all in the morning.
To quote DH:
Night, night, sleep tight
Don't let the bed bugs bite.
If you see them on the wall,
Take a spoon and eat them all.
Ugh! Boys!!!
red feprqnz
Fortunately even Penny reads quotes (from) New Zealand. (I think that is where that news item came from.)
blue voudglbn Norwegian candy
g-g said "HA! I crack myself up!"
LMAO. but quietly, as is typing, as mom is on the phone with Important People. well, Person.
scope dope: ummm, can you get my that article because last report i have is global warming is going downhill faster than the train that could. seriously, the charts and stuff i have been seeing don't in any way show a positive look right now.
my parents used to say that to me. "don't let the bed bugs bite". oh, gonna sleep just fine now. and is the bogeyman under the bed? thank goodness i have such a vivid imagination.
ok, no therapy for this, i actually very rarely had/have bad dreams, and even more rare nightmares.
but still, those were my impressionable years.
gatorperson said...
OH said ...It's sort of a narrative thing, like: "You're standing there, and this guy walks up and ask you for a dime. So, you tell him, "Hell, no!"
I disagree. 1st person is saying these things to 2nd person. This stuff is in 1st's mind, NOT in 2nd’s mind. Do I make sense? I don’t think you can write in second person. I’m willing to be persuaded. Try again.
That was me, not OH, and you don't have to agree, *smiling very sweetly* but that's a paraphrase from a short story we read in the lit class where we learned about second person narative. It's bloody confusing just because it is so unnatural for most of us.
Second person is "you," so "you" has to be the subject of the sentence, although the narrator is speaking about him/herself. It's confusing, but if the subject isn't "you," it's not second person. Really. I wish I had a clue what the story was, but it was a short story. So, even if I could remember the name or who wrote it, chances are I'd never find it now. Check out the book OH mentioned.
theresa in pgh said...
And related to nothing, I totally wacked the heck out of my knee earlier this evening. It hurt so darn bad that I wondered for a minute if I'd broken it. I now have a lovely goose egg on my knee, which I didn't think was possible. I think I need to ice it some more.
You should probably go get it checked out. I did that once on the way to work. My boss took me to the ER. She had one leg way shorter than the other from a knee injury with a goose egg just like mine. Don't take any chances.
krjcdmed (blue)
Kittens romp joyously, catching dogs, mewing, + eating delights.
xcytpjs (red)
excite pjs??? why? or better yet, how?
Scope Dope Cherrybomb said...
For whomever mentioned the global warming, according to the paper the other night scientists believe that global warming in Antartica has slowed to a stop and that the ozone layer could close within sixty years.
SCCB and OH, I heard much the same thing in a Charlie Rose interview with Al Gore about his film - hole is shrinking, and, if we follow good practices, it could close. Probably a result of some of the things like banning the propellants they used to use in hair sprays and some other initiatives from the sixties and seventies. (totally guessing here, since I didn't hear the whole interview. That may be where the report you read got the data. Knowing Gore, it's all good science, too. Can you get hold of that film? I don't know if it's on DVD or not.
On that subject, I do think the media is blowing it out of proportion, as they are wont to do. Not the fact of "global warming," but attributing the heat waves we've been having to that and that alone. When I first moved to Baltimore, it stayed in the mid to high 90s almost continuously for a couple months, and was very, very humid. By the time I left, it only got to the 90s half as often, if that, and was much less humid. Likewise, here in CA, especially the greater Bay Area where all the wine production goes on, it's less hot in the summer than it used to be and less cold in the winter. All those grapes respiring all that moisture into the air has taken what was once a true "micro" climate and expanded it to affect a fairly large area.
You build more cities, pave over earth, and do away with green areas, you're going to raise summer temps and lower winter ones. Look at Phoenix as compared to Tucson. Phoenix is a much bigger city with all the extra pollution and paving that go with that, and (at least when I was living there and traveling between the two) it is at least 10 degrees hotter in the summer for a lot of the time. Of course, if they put in enough golf courses, that could change. ;+) Tal, can you say if this is still the case?
Anyway, global warming is real and needs to be fixed, but not every change in climate is due to global warming. Climates have cycles, which is clear if you look at a couple hundred years of data. It particularly pisses me off when the media jump on this bandwagon with both feet and only half a mind, because it gives the world, or the portion that sees the US as the evil Satan, more ammunition to blame changes in the weather on us, too. But don't get me on the subject of an irresponsible media.
depxvh (green)
Do elves protest Xavier very heartily?
On that second person thing, since I think we were past 100 comments before it started and Bob won't be able to see it, maybe Jenny will be willing to give us the real skinny when she has time to blog again.
wbjjc (blue)
What? Bob jumped Jenny's cat?
I was going to say car, but Jenny has a truck, IIRC.
No global warming going on here during our summer. We had one hot week, now it's back to cool and yucky.
Tal - we want to play your golf courses, ours have been taken over by strange beings and we can't get rid of them. And, the ice rinks on Jupitor (not pluto, people, get it right, pluto is mainly occupied by dogs), are substandard and not maintained very well. And, we don't want to suck your brains out, we want to harvist the brain waves that come from them and give them to the dogs on pluto to teach you how to be better masters.
Tal - you make me laugh. How the heck did I end up being Regis. Who started that one anyway. And Bryan isn't me, nor am I Bryan, Geez, makes me think of the whole Janet/Michael jackson thing. Anyway, we are twins though, which is why we look so much alike.
SDCB - Your DH cracks me up!
Stupid blogger. Naturally, the one it ate was a lot better. I ended up pasting a backup to Word, emailing it to myself and home and trying it again. And I'm asking myself why. I'm not really adding anything new here. I think I've got compulsive blogger's syndrome.
At least I'm learning stuff today!
I thought I had the 2nd person thing, but now I don't think so. I think I'm stuck between it sounding stalker-esque, as in: You walked down the street and bought a newspaper and a dozen donuts. You got powdered sugar on your shirt. Your skirt was too short. I'm also seeing it like Helga the dominatrix: You lick my boot and like it. Oh well. Don't think I'll use it anytime soon, but at least I will know what it is :)
Censorship: People are entitled to their opinions, just as people are entitled to disagree. Just don't try to jam your opinion down my throat. Sometimes I think that last bit is what people don't get.
I'm more in favor of paying attention to what my kid watches and listens to and turning things off. Since the labels are everywhere now, I'm still pretty amazed when people ignore them. I have an aunt who bought my 13 yr old niece an Emimem CD. She listened to country, so she didn't have a clue. Luckily they listened to it all the way home and she told the niece that there was no way she was taking it home with her. Now the only time the niece can listen to it as at the aunt's house. (Personally, I would have gotten rid of it, but that is just me.)
Sometimes I have to remind the DH that The Girls Next Door (Hef's girlfriends) and Howard Stern are not exactly appropriate for a 10 year old. I think he actually gets so shocked that he just blanks out and cannot help but stare. Could be his Y chromosome showing too.
Hot buttons: I used to have a fake key on my keyboard that said, "@#$%!." I actually used it quite a bit at an old job.
On tolerance: There is a quote that wasn't really relating to this, but there are times it still applies. "If a first you don't succeed, try, try, again. Then stop. There's no sense being a damn fool about it." There are just some people whose only purpose in life is to make others miserable. There is someone I have to deal with that I've tried to be friendly to and make the best of a difficult situation. The person then did a deal breaker. I will be civil, but that is all. The trick is to not sink into the muck with them. And that is hard. Very, very hard. My DH is a much better person than I am.
bcb: I work in an office too, one of those financial institutions that keeps changing their names. My first day of work I was told we had been bought out. I have determined that Dilbert is alive and well in corporate America. I read things in the comics and the next week someone in management announces we are going to do what Scot Adams just made fun of. Sometimes I wonder how my college education applies to make copies all day, but at least the stress is a whole lot less than the last place I worked.
It must be long comment day at the blog.
qisrcxs: I think I need some caffiene (sp?) first.
Zaza said ... Anyway, global warming is real and needs to be fixed, but not every change in climate is due to global warming.
I've often had this same thought. I am NOT downplaying the problem of global warming either. Its real and needs to be taken seriously. But as you said there are unrelated cycles that have taken place since Og was hitting Grug with a club. There are two things going on, not just one. In order to know where we really are with GW we need to know where the natural cycles fit into the big picture. Otherwise you will always have people who use a natural down cycle (cooler summers and fewer hurricanes) as an argument against global warming.
btuda informed us ... I work in an office too, one of those financial institutions that keeps changing their names.
Oh yeah. You guys have the top floor in our building. The joke among tenants is "who are they today?"
G-G wrote: but since Louis has said that his sons are spoken for
Nonono. He said his grandsons are spoken for -- he's keeping awfully quiet about his DS's. Probably wants to prevent a stampede.
btuda wrote: I'm more in favor of paying attention to what my kid watches and listens to and turning things off.
Turning things off works for a while when they're young. But as a long term strategy, that of teaching them to think about and sort through information themselves, it is much more useful to sit with them, watch or listen together, and then discuss. Tell them what you found offensive and why. Not only will this give them another perspective when they encounter the same thing elsewhere (and they will), but it serves to de-mystify some of it. You know, that whole thrill of the forbidden: Oooh, mom said I can't watch/listen to this, it must be really bad if she won't even talk about it and isn't it fun to sneak behind her back and do it anyway.
BTW, some of the Eminem stuff I've heard isn't so much offensive as it is disturbing -- something you'd want to discuss if it strikes a chord with your kid. Really.
Which brings me around to the persuasive argument/censorship debate. I find it isn't the validity or weight of the point being made that "wins" an argument, but often the craftiness of the one making it. For purposes of discussion here, I am imagining politicians. A good persuasive argument starts with a grain of truth, something that will resonate with many people as being true. It then plays on fear or suspicion or feelings of inadequacy. It will often utilize charm or humour, but not necessarily. And it is most effective on an audience that is uninformed or unwilling (whether too lazy or too busy) to dig deeper.
That is my admittedly very cynical view of it. Maybe I've seen too much effective manipulation in my time. And it's why my gut reaction, when people want to slam down the lid of censorship, is to find the brightest light I can and start throwing open lids and turning over rocks. Examining "false" arguments or offensive content under the bright light of knowledge and candor does more to relieve them of their power than leaving them to fester and grow in the darkness of ignorance.
Ok. Enough of that. I have other stuff to accomplish today.
bw
ScopeDope, Zaza and OH: Global Warming is NOT slowing or getting better. In fact, recent news on GW from Antarctica shows that it is melting but NOT getting the increased snowfall in the interior that some had predicted might mitigate the situation. Even if we all stopped emitting CO2 NOW, we would continue to see GW effects for a considerable time. People have been predicting GW for a long time, based on what one would expect from dumping all that CO2 (from burning coal, oil and natural gas) into the atmosphere, and it's clearly (OK, to atmospheric scientists) separate from any other weather cycles.
What IS getting better in Antarctica: the Ozone hole. Ozone protects us from UV light (and therefore skin cancer, cataracts etc.). As a result of the Montreal Protocol, an international treaty that, yes, Zaza does deal with the propellants that used to be used in aerosol spray containers (now they use CO2, but, compared to burning fossil fuels, it's trivial) and, probably more significantly, in blowing foams and as a refrigerant (e.g. Freon®). They phased these things out, and, 20+ years later, the ozone hole has stopped getting bigger and, as SDCB says, is expected to close - in 50-60 years. Hey, it's a big atmosphere and takes a while to fix.
So, score one for international treaties! Now, if only we could do better on the OTHER issue, we'd all be healthier people.
Global Warming and the ozone layer aren't wholly unrelated, they're both atmospheric phenomena, so they interact, but, they are two different problems, and, while the ozone problem is on the way to being solved, we are FAR from having worked out Global Warming - let alone fixed it.
/pedantic explanations
Don't get me wrong diane I didn't think we had fixed it just helped a little.
green djfdji
Dear Jenny, free Doherty, just in (case).
zaza as a former member of the media I can tell you that they can't print what they make up, just what people give them. Editors dont like that. These global warming theories are generally put forth by scientists. Others that comment on it are attributed pieces so it is not the reporters words but the commentators words.
diane I don't think that global warming is fixed. Look at the fact that they think that polar bears may become extinct because the ice is thawing therefore there are not enough seals for the bears food. BTW that was a story attributed to a noted scientist who had spent a great deal of time reserching the polar bears until he died suddenly last year. Unfortunately I can't remember his name.
I hope blogger lets this one go through. I have had five comments deleted this morning because when I hit publish blogger came back done with a blank page.
red vawwzm
Virtually all women writers zest more.
Lori said: Woe.
LOL! Who are you, Joey Lawrence?
GG--Sorry, didn't mean to butt in but with possible GAMs up for grabs, it was just too much for a girl to handle.
But I agree with Lori, Cali is a bit too far away.
Louis--The relationship status of your male relatives should be given when you mention them on the blog. To prevent the female CBs from starting a frenzy.
SDCB: I sympathize. I think there would be a lot more comments up here if Blogger weren't hung over. I only commented on the GW/ ozone thing because a lot of people think they're a lot more related than they are. And I'm bummed about the polar bears.
Theresa: I think I forgot to wish your knee better! I know nothing about knees, but I'm sorry yours is hurt and hope it gets all fixed up soon. And good luck with the complicated moving!
crmohpox: when the spots come out in lots of different colors
can i just ditto what diane said, because that is what i learnt. and about the polar bears, it's not just that they don't have seals it's that their resting places are shrinking and getting farther away from each other. the polar bear can't make it and end up drowning.
2nd person: one more thing. "you" can be used in 1st or 3rd, but it will be in dialogue. if it's in the narrative then it is 2nd person. You say vs. he said, "You have-"
censorship: my HS librarian (i love this woman) has a month of restricted books. after the new list of banned books comes out, she pulls every book she has on it and puts it under a banner that says "Banned Books. Read them"
Theresa: hope the knee is doing ok now. Poor baby.
and kyra, how's your friend doing?
btuda said...
I think I'm stuck between it sounding stalker-esque, as in: You walked down the street and bought a newspaper and a dozen donuts. You got powdered sugar on your shirt. Your skirt was too short.
That's telling someone something about themselves. Second person narrative is the person talking about what themselves. Think about if you saw an old lady who seemed to be trying to cross a busy street and went over to help her. But instead of being grateful for the help, she whacks you with her walker. So, in recounting this to someone, you say something like: "You're walking down the street minding your own business when what do you see, but this old dame on the standing on the corner, waiting for a break in traffic. So, you go over and take her arm, and before you can say, "I'll help you," the old broad breaks your shins with her walker." Think of that said in your basic jamokespeak.
AND...
I'm also seeing it like Helga the dominatrix: You lick my boot and like it. Oh well. Don't think I'll use it anytime soon, but at least I will know what it is :)
That's the imperative, really - do this, do that - so, not second person narrative. Remember it's telling a whole story, of whatever length, in second person, not addressing another person, as this is.
It's hard. I think the only way to really get it is to read something written in second person.
Major rant incoming...
Scope Dope Cherrybomb said...
zaza as a former member of the media I can tell you that they can't print what they make up, just what people give them. Editors dont like that.
Me, too, ScopeDope. I used to do television news. The sensational stories are reported to death in strident and dramatic fashion because they will bring in the viewers/readers. And, guess what, you can turn anything into a sensational story if you give it the right spin.
Diet trends are a good example of that. Decades ago when someone saw a legitimate medical report that butter contained cholesterol (or something of that nature) and that elevated cholesterol had been linked to heart attacks, they reported it as though eating butter was a guaranteed heart attack. Your body needs cholosterol to function. In fact, your liver makes some cholesterol. No, those reports didn't lie, except by implication.
People went crazy for margarine. Whereas, in actuality, and as was more recently reported, the negative effects of eating hydrogenated fats are far more dangerous that the amount of cholesterol you ingest in your daily toast or baked potato. One place reported the butter-heart attack story, it was picked up over and over until it was gospel, because it was sensational.
It affected the eating habits of more than one generation. Yes, butter contains cholesterol and elevated cholesterol levels can contribute to heart disease, but it's not a quid pro quo. So, really, the media did a helluva lot of people a major disservice, although they reported a couple of facts and let people make the fallacious connection.
The demise of the dot.coms at the end of the 90s was largely down to irresponsible reporting and greedy investors. First the media hyped the huge income potential of the dot.coms and drove a lot of investment capital their way. A lot. Come up with any insane idea, and someone was willing to give you multiple millions if you could make it sound like they were going to reap huge rewards. They wanted a cash explosion, not a gradual build to a strong, stable company.
Investors stopped looking at the business's potential for success and looked only at the income potential when the company went IPO. Which many of them didn't, because they weren't built on a stable business model.
Then some of the companies (which, in a saner, less media-driven market, would never have gotten funded) started going under. No biggie. That's the way business works - the strong, well-thought out ones succeed, the weak, poorly conceived or executed ones fail. But the media jumped on it like mad dogs on a bitch in heat.
Yes, there were excesses. Tech people could basically name their price and get it. Bennies were ludicrously inflated. And I admit I took advantage of all of it, making more money that I ever had or, most likely, ever will again (unless I become another Nora Roberts...ahem).
But, the sad thing is, when the media whipped the public into a panic for really no good reason, a lot of good companies, strong, well-funded companies, went under because the continued funding they needed to carry them through IPO disappeared. When someone invests in a start up, it's understood that the funding is for the next phase of the business developent. When you've been funded through two rounds by the same VC (venture capitalist) and you're doing well, it's reasonable to expect that the funding will be there for the next round. But panicked investors cut companies off without a qualm, because they had no real interest in those companies' survival, only in a quick and generous return. And if they took a multimillion dollar loss, well, they could write it off on their taxes. And tell their investors about how it goes when a bubble bursts, and it was a good ride while it lasted (shades of Faking It).
So, yes, the greed of VCs and other big investors played a major role in that disaster, but the media whipping everyone into a panic is, I firmly believe, what turned the tide and turned it into a death dealing financial tsunami. Cripes.
Even Cisco, one of the strongest high tech companies around, saw their stock prices drop by, I don't know, 75%. Could have been more. They were extrememly well-capitalized, always had new and essential products in development and had really smart management, but it was pretty scary even there for a couple years. Anyway, with the irresponsible media reporting driving it, our whole economy took a major hit on that one.
Wnd rant
Diane, you're right, I was tying the hole in the ozone layer to global warming, inadvertently. ;+))) See, how even with the best intentions it's easy to make a mistake or give a wrong impression.
I think the point that Al Gore is trying to get across with his film is, don't listen to the doomsayers. These things are fixable or at least repairable, but we have to accept certain "hardhips" for that to happen. Sorry for putting words in his mouth. For me, when someone wails, "the end is nigh," it's like saying, "do your worst, cause you're gonna die, baby," and people do, do their worst. If global warming is going to destroy the planet, well why not indulge in wretched excess and enjoy ourselves while we can? One hopes the people who operate this way don't have children, who are going to be left with an even sicker planet, but I imagine that's a pretty futile hope.
gszapit (blue)
Go send Zoe a present in triplicate.
mgomnj (red) see what happens when I rant???
My goodness, Oscar makes nice jewelry.
grlpgpkl (red) I'm being punished. I know I am.
When you're preggers with a girl baby, you crave pickles. Blogger says so.
wzzoiq (green) Speaking of censorship, Blogger can go take a flying somethingorother.
btuda commented ... For me, when someone wails, "the end is nigh," it's like saying, "do your worst, cause you're gonna die, baby,"
Yep. There's a fine line between alerting people that they need to take something seriously, and scaring them so much that they feel impotent.
I don't pay too much attention to the news lately. I get my daily does of headlines in the morning and an occasional newspaper article, but the hype and dramatization are a real turn off for me. The press don't make things up but they do play to ratings. Which means we don't get balanced information. TV news is mostly going to rehash the same big stories over and over again, and of course they have to budget how much time goes to each story. If I'm really interested in something I'll go online and read multiple articles. I feel I get more information and its less sensationalized.
I'm with you mcb. I get more from newspapers. I look at the scrolling news on our networks and then I go to the newspaper if I want the full story.
Finally up, are you? How did you do that last night? Watch the blog and communicate with me? You blow my minds. Then you also posted comments on both.
I like The Week magazine. It's a good overview of what's going on in the US and abroad, and it does a good job of summarizing the facts and the opinions the facts evoke. If I follow the news too closely, I end up getting depressed plus unfortuneately it takes too much time. This way I have a grasp of what's going on in the world on a regular basis without being overwhelmed.
amc: exactly. i can be pretty political but every few months i have to take a break from all the news i read or i'd lose my mind.
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