Warning: Some Violence and Much Strong Language.HE WROTE: B & B’s, edits, Agnes, The Unit.
Covering a lot here. OK. The B&B. Enough said.
Edits. Jenny went through Chasing the Dead. There were several: “What the f#$% does this mean?” comments inserted. So, a Jenny critique isn’t for the faint-hearted. Of course, those who’ve been to my retreat feel the same way about mine, so payback is a medevac.
But it’s all good. I’m fixing those things I ‘knew’ were wrong. Some major, some minor, but all add up to taking a book from the margin to being solid. Combining characters, which is always good to do, to reduce reader confusion. Making the A Plot really the A Plot and not swapping it out with the B Plot. Focusing on the antagonist and getting rid of the false climax. Refining the relationship between the protagonist and his girlfriend and taking it from psycho-babble to a very dark, erotic thing with an edge that will mirror the main plot. Making the antagonist the true antagonist for both A and B plots. And much more.
Agnes is done. Sort of. Lots of rewriting ahead, but like Chasing, we really tried to focus the plot. I think the draft is a lot better than DLD was when we turned that in. But I know there’s much more work ahead, especially when we get feedback from our editor who can really focus in on key things. Some editors get so caught up in the trees, they forget trees grow in forests.
We have a scathingly brilliant concept for further books we’re very, very excited about, but first we have to see reaction to Agnes. And then we have to put together a scathingly brilliant proposal for it. And it’s not just the next book, but a concept that’s bigger than that, that might not go over. But we really like the idea. I know, a teaser with no info, but such is the business.
I’d had an offer to write a couple of novels based on the TV show, THE UNIT. I’ll discuss this in more detail, perhaps, in another post, so you can see how the publishing business sort of works, or doesn’t work, as the case may be, because the deal seems to have collapsed for various reasons. But it is a wickedly well-written show. And the book, Inside Delta Force, is a damn good insight into the world of Special Ops. I’m teaching on-line for KOD next month and the topic is covert operations for writers. I think. Also have my retreat the weekend after this with 2 slots still open for those who want a 'Bob" critique which is much nicer than a Jennie critique. I don't use profanity.
I convinced Jennifer to make an appt with a doctor so she’s going tomorrow because having a ‘cold’ for four weeks isn’t good. It’s not because I’m a nice guy—I need someone to do all the rewriting.
246 Comments:
Ohhhhh First, now to read it!
Jeez Bobb! You had to go and call her Jennie...Are you hoping she won't notice through the cold induced fog?
PS-if you have a chance, can I pick your brain about kayaks?
"Agnes is done. Sort of."
"We have a scathingly brilliant concept for further books we’re very, very excited about...."
Yippee! (Picture snoopy dance here.) Bob, Jenny, you know where to find your "focus group" for that scathingly brilliant book proposal.
mfniaaj - Nope, still too early for me.
OK, Chasing the Dead will be "dark and erotic?" Can't wait for that one then!
The new idea is a concept bigger than just the next book? Are we talking movie deals? A series?! Again, can't wait! I'm so excited about all this, bring it on!
Never watched The Unit, but now I may have to if you if you're possibly writing books about it.
Laura: Think he used "Jennie" because he was ticked about the profane critique? I think I'd be honored to have Jenny swearing on my manuscript.
"Scathingly brilliant"
Can't wait to read it.
No, wait...have to read "Agnes" first. Then "Chasing the Dead"
Nothing but good reading ahead!
btuljy...red
Bob takes vividly lovely Jenny's YEC
blogger strikes
sdwim...red
so, do women intake M&Ms
Jenny, I had a "cold" for 4 weeks and it turned out I had bronchitis. Which I then had for 3 more weeks. Not good.
And Bob, if I had known your books had anything erotic in them I would've started reading a long time ago.
Sara
Bob - I've had one of your critiques and I can honeslty say there were no swear words involved. And, it was very detailed, motivational and very long considering I only sent you 18 pages, I think. You also made a couple of funnies. Anyway, it was a great critique and because of your wonderful comments I finaled in the contest and came in 3rd. However, and I hang my head on this one. There was two points you made, that I did not change, and well, the final judge said, and I'm not kidding, the very same thing you did about those two points. Sigh, I should've listend to you the first time.
And how mean are you about that slot you still have open, knowing how much I'm dying to go to your retreat! Damn, it's so unfair. Between going to Atlanta, NJ and my kids, well, that weekend just doesn't work for me. You really should consider changing it just for me. Or maybe offering a scholorship to me and find a driver for my kids for their hockey games that weekend. Geez, have you no heart?
And it really shouldn't be your last one, really, you should do anoter one, just because I asked you too. Make in like May, that's a good month for me.
At least you know Jenny is really reading your book and not telling you it's bloody brilliant just for something to say.
What are friends for?
This post has been removed by the author.
I'll second what Jen said -- well, the parts I understood (scholarship? driver? Jen, I think you've lost it).
RG went to Bob's retreat and talked about it when we were in Atlanta; she had nothing but good things to say. So all you lurking writers out there (yes, you, over in the corner) go check out the details on Bob's website. Go. Now.
I had seriously considered going, but circumstances just won't allow it. And I agree it's a shame this is the last one, because May might work for me too.
Can you imagine? Jen and me, her and I, both signed up for the same writing retreat with The GAM? [evil grin] I think that prospect just about guarantees THAT won't ever happen.
I'd even promise to be nice. Sigh.
bw
Bob - could've sworn there was a post a while back about impending umemployment, can't believe it, you're way too busy! Chasing the Dead - dark? erotic? yowza! I'm with Sara, I'd have read them before had I known. And thanks for convincing Jenny a doctor might be a good call. I'm just guessing, but there could be some strong antibiotics coming her way! Still watching The Unit, will be thinking about you. And really the teasing is just not nice!
Jen-t - add my congratulations to the pile. Sorry Bob had to be right, dang the rightness! Are you coming to Atlanta? 'Cuz you know I'm quite the resource.
BCB - Yeah, you and me at Bob's retreat! Yep. Imagine the laughter, then the evil stare from Bob. Bob, please have another retreat! BCB and I promise to be nice, really we do. We will be very behaved. I'll duct tape my mouth closed.
Okay, did anyone else notice that Bob dear referred to out Jenny in three different ways.
First, Jenny that gave him a critique using the F bomb.
Second Jennie, once again refering to her critique.
Third - Jennifer who needed to see a doctor.
What is up with that Bob?
Jenny, I do hope you are feeling better soon! Get some good meds and sleep for a week. Give Bob extensive directions for circling and patterns and let him do it for a change. You need your rest.
SUBJECT CHANGE
The American Title III contest voting started today. You can vote by checking out my blog and following the directions there, or go to www.romantictimes.com and somewhere there is a place to vote. Good luck to everyone, but I'm secretly hoping my friend Judi wins, she's fab! Judi gave Bob and Jenny cookies in NJ! So she's cool.
Bob, because you had recommended it before, I picked up "Inside Delta Force" for my dad to read and he is enjoying it very much. Dad is something of a picky reader, having put aside many books because the narrative didn't hold his attention. This one he likes, and he is something of a history buff as well so it scores on two fronts.
uxshdxu: Unperturbed, Xavier stabs his dreaded xiphoid utensil ...
Bob, I was wondering this morning how the galley review goes with a collaboration. Do you & J sit in the same room to review one copy at the same time? And how about copyedits, are they reviewed the same way? In both cases it would be hard if you each made separate passes at reviewing the edits. Unless you passed one single copy back & forth a lot.
Just wondering. Thanks for the view into the WoP.
onworwl -- Similar to onomatopoeia, words mimicking sounds but spoken with your mouth full.
Zaza - how is your back doing this week?
Thought I had commented on the last voting results but I failed to find it - either blogger ate my comments or I just imagined them ... hmmm.
Anyway, it was what, 47 or 48 votes, right? I think that's a pretty good representation of the CBs. So CB it is and that works for me.
Let us know if there is further work we can help with.
Um Bob's other books aren't erotic. Dark sometimes but not erotic.
Looking forward to CTD and Agnes.
So excited about the brillant idea you and Jenny had that you keep teasing us with.
You're worried about the response to Agnes. With the CB's promoting the h*** out of it, why on earth are you worried
Jenny glad you're going to the doctor. Feel better soon.
Cross your fingers for me everyone. I'm on my way to rent a 17' truck to pick up some furniture. Have I mentioned we're living down narrow twisty roads at the moment?
i would love to go to Bob's retreat, but the price (which isn't bad, I'm not implying that at all) combined with the hotel and transportation is just beyond the means of this new homeowner. Sigh. And then this is the last one? Ever? Double sigh. Hey, Bob, if you are in fact worried about impending unemployment, another retreat or five will ease that burden a bit. (hint, hint. OK, beg, beg.)
Speaking of retreats...is anyone going to the Cincy conference on Nov. 11? I'm debating it (but aforementioned new home and the 5 hour drive has me wavering).
rlryiljn Robert leaves readers yearning in lasting, jealous need
bkgjw Bob kills guys, Jenny writes
I think the Jenny, Jennie, Jennifer is easily explained. He got it right the first, time, got lazy the second time, and the "Jennifer" is the same kind of "uh-oh, you're in trouble" that parents use when scolding children. As in, you know you're in trouble if mom uses your Full Name.
I want to know what the super secret "we're all excited" writing idea is!!!
A 4-week cold ain't no cold. Colds last about 10-14 days. Glad she's going to the MD.
Speaking of which, I had my physical and I think my MD is bored with me. No problems, healthier than I've probably ever been, told me to come back in 2 years unless something comes up. And then I went online to get my cholesterol, fasting glucose and thyroid screen results. My cholesterol is down (though the highest was 10 years ago when it was high normal), the "good" cholesterol is up, the "bad" cholesterol is down, the triglycerides (which can be a pre-indicator of insulin resistance/diabetes if it's high) have plummetted in the 4 years since they were last tested so I'm much further away from inheriting my father's diabetes, my fasting glucose is a bit higher (which is good, I had a tendency towards the low end before and my grandmother was hypoglycemic, so it's normalized now), and my risk of heart disease is something like 1/4 the average risk.
Hate to say it, but that exercise stuff? I really works. Sad, but true.
Bob? You're writing something that's "a very dark, erotic thing"? Solo? Say it ain't so. What about the "no Yex, none of the time" creedo? Have you been converted? Oi vay!
G-G: Glad to hear the good news! Well I'm not as dedicated to it as you are, but I have been trying, since about this time last year, to be a little more diligent about the exercise.
I was doing pretty good, but my TBR stack was getting out of hand, since that's usually my dedicated reading time, and I was having withdrawals. If I don't get regular reading time in, I get very cranky. But I promise to dig back in once I get a little more caught up.
So not relevant to anything Bob posted, but I thought since Tal has been MIA, I would post a link to something cute for all of you to enjoy (especially the cat lovers out there):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2GWPOPSXGYI
So adorable.
And, unrelated to what I just wrote, I'm thinking of taking the plunge and doing NaNoWriMo this year (www.nanowrimo.org). Anyone else going to attempt it?
MCB: Not as diligent since bootcamp ended and it got darker and colder outside (sigh), but trying to keep up with it. We'll see how it goes. I can always return to bootcamp if I start really slacking off.
But, under there somewhere, I now have oblique abdominal muscles. Well, I suppose they were always there, I just couldn't tell. There's still a nice cozy fat duvet on top of them, but *I* can feel them, and that's really cool.
Gee Bob, I think you could do a retreat with just a bunch of CherryBombs. That alone should get you to schedule another one, right?
As Bob runs for the hills....
About the dark erotic thing...well, in CUT OUT, the book does open with two guys sitting in a car listening to people go "at it" for like 40 minutes. Not erotic, but hey, 40 minutes?
FYI - if you haven't read CUT OUT, I suggest you do. It's one of my personal Bob Mayer favorites. Of course, it's right up there with BODY GUARD OF LIES.
Bob wrote: "I'm teaching on-line for KOD next month and the topic is covert operations for writers, I think." Hey Bob, I can send you the course description if you like.
Okay, back to the dreaded synopsis. I hate writing those suckers. I really do.
Hey, BCB! I'm thinking it would be great if all the CBs got together with OH for Thanksgiving. What do you say? Ready for a ...
ROAD TRIP!
Christina,
I'm going to do it unofficially because I'm not willing to start a new WIP in the process. I've got four already in progress. I don't need five.
I found a nice little Excel spreadsheet here that is based on the one nanowrimo has on their site but is a little more flexible.
GG,
Good job on your report card. And that duvet still looked pretty good in the bikini pictures. Way better than the beer keg I'm carrying around.
I hope Jenny's cold gets better - or that the MD can find something to alleviate/ eliminate her symptoms if it's not a cold after all.
GG - congrats on the excellent health! I've got to get back to exercising. I've been off for nearly a month now and I haven't put on weight, I've lost it, so now would be a good time to start watching what I eat (I've been a pig, too, so I'm a little flummoxed)and exercising again. I forgot to ask my sister if she put my exercise circle in the mail, but there are plenty of things I can do without that anyway. Nothing wrong with a little covering on the obliques - women are metabolically designed to carry some cushioning and besides, you look fabulous.
I've got to go get nails (2) out of my tire and, while it's off the rim, go ahead and get the snow tires on. I was going to wait 2 weeks, but what the heck. Save a trip.
ukggkh: sound of intense disgust, such as can only be made by children when faced with healthy food.
Refining the relationship between the protagonist and his girlfriend and taking it from psycho-babble to a very dark, erotic thing with an edge that will mirror the main plot.
Oh, that has to be Bob-speak for YEC and YEX. Don't think you can sneak that by us, Bob. We're CBs. We're trained to spot these things.
diane sez: and besides, you look fabulous and bryan sez things equally complimentary.
Thank you both. Your checks are in the mail. :)
As for Bob's books, the two I've read BoL and The Rock, are not remotely erotic. So I like the idea that he's branching out. Must be the Jenny influence.
Has anyone read Dona Flor and her Two Husbands by Jorge Amado? I read something about it in a magazine recently and it looked interesting. I have a backlog of books to read and haven't been reading fiction lately, but still wondering. I've read some South American fiction and while some appeals, much does not, so looking for opinions.
I haven't been doing these lately, but this is too good to pass up:
ksgeek: kickbox silently, geek
Apropos of nothing:
DS21 is home from college for a couple days on fall break and in exchange for some heavy lifting around the yard I let him take my credit card to buy a pair of pants. So he calls me at work to tell me what he bought. And he's driving. And every few words he yells out a "Bronxism" to some other driver, then calmly resumes the conversation where he left off.
I tell you, it was deja vu. J&B could have been writing his dialog. I was laughing so hard, by the time he noticed and asked what was so funny, I couldn't even answer him.
And I know he was rolling his eyes when he said: Mom, you are so weird.
And then: What's for supper? Mind if some of the guys come over to eat?
Guess I'm feeding the troops tonight, because our house is the place to hang out. Which is a good thing. Really.
My yard is going to look so good.
bw
BCB - Have fun with the son and the troops. My son this evening also mentioned something about me being wierd as I sat here in front of my computer pulling my hair out writing a 7 page synopsis that really sucks and I have this look on my face like I'm going to kill someone, so I check my e-mail and I start laughing so hard that my son thinks his mother is now possessed. When he asked me what was so funny, I said "You wouldn't get it." he said, "You and those blogger people need to get a life." This made me laugh even harder.
Yeah, you people put a smile on my face.
Bob - So, do we get a little peek at the erotic stuff? Maybe you should post an excerpt or something. Snort.
mylap - yep, it said my lap!
CMS (or anyone else) please email me your phone number ASAP. thank you!
ok, gonna go play catch up.
but first, GP, i got your beautiful brownies. thank you. will go see if they found out about your DD.
i want a Bob retreat. actually, this one sounded fascinating, i would love to do it, but, umm, you know, the school thing? kind of takes up a lot of time.
Jenny- i hope you feel better and the MD gives you lots of good things.
g-g: congrats on your fitness. it makes me very proud. keep up the good work.
christina: cute picture. click on the "Cat from hell" and you'll hear some noises.
MCB said "Hey, BCB! I'm thinking it would be great if all the CBs got together with OH for Thanksgiving."
hell yes! i third this!
midterm front: i actually think i did really well on this. but this could be a delusion of sickness.
GP: how's your DD? did she get any news?
GP again: they are very good brownies
lulu: been trying to email you for the past couple of days but not getting anything. i'm at orangehands@gmail.com if you want to email me.
g-g - glad the working out is paying off. You did look great on the beach. I still won't join your cult, I hear those endorphins can be addictive, that can't be good, I mean addiction, that's a bad thing right? I'll go comfort myself with some M&Ms, when you're ready to admit you may just have an addiction, I might just share.
OH - already with the mid-terms, it seems just yesterday you were unpacking, playing flashlight tag, enjoying the college life. Aaarrgh the academics poke their ugly heads in, although it sounds like you've got it under control, well done.
BCB - as the boys get older, I'm praying my house is your house. I'm trying to keep lots of chips, cookies, pop around as they age so they bring the troops here.
Jen-t - trying to explain all this to the DH, and all he cares about is how long will that glow paint last? Didn't even get a you need to get a life.
OH, you will notice she didn't reply. Well to be fair probably busy feeding all those hungry boys. Speaking of which, I could have used some help with the heavy lifting this past weekend. I was talking to a friend today, whining about the stuff I can't do because I don't have the size and strength. *sigh*
But we can still do the road trip. I think Dee returned the bi plane. If we send the Canadians over Niagra Falls in a barrell, they can pick up Jen from the hockey rink. It might be night time by then, but that's okay because Jen has those glow in the dark finger nails. Like Rudolph, she can lead the way. But try to avoid NJ, guys. Security there knows us now.
Well, DD18 is going to be sooo upset her fall break isn't until NEXT weekend, because Max is here. Max is a couple inches taller than DS21 so he must be 6'5", dark hair, whiskey colored eyes. He is so ridiculously gorgeous it isn't funny. And he's polite. And he brought a really nice bottle of wine. For me. I like Max. DD18 has a huge crush on him. Very understandable.
Back to cooking now. These boys can eat, let me tell you.
It's a little frightening.
MCB: We'll talk about this road trip later. You are not driving.
bw
Ya know, I'd spring $$$ for a Bob retreat. I don't write fiction, but I might learn something, have a blast with CB's, generally lollygag around. Yep. I'd do that. We could sit on Bob's deck pop paint balls at the sailers-on-kites, sip drinks with flamingo stirrers and cherries frozen in ice cubes. And listen to him lecture. Somebody ask him about scheduling that for us!
Latest DD#1 report: the shadow is a dermoid ovarian cyst. I go with her to the gyn surgeon next week to hold her hand. She's now relieved to discover her PMS, etc. is real. Before then an eye appt for MIL, holding her hand. Just call me Atlas.
OH, thanks for asking. You Xmas cookie people, FedEx is SLOW. It took a week to get brownies to CA from NC. OH, don't get sick from those things!
hvhiidqa: Does Blooger hate just me, or is everyone getting these long and impossible letters?
BCB: You never let me drive. I feel like the young cop in the old Adam 12 series. But you know Jen and the Canadians will hit my neck of the wood first. Sounds like DD18 has good taste! Adding stuff to my iPod, I blogged, a little Faith Hill "Sunshine and Summertime" because listening to it makes me feel good, and getting ready to settle in with Dick Francis' "Under Orders" for an hour or so. I like his books. Then later tonight watching Studio 60. Love that show.
And speaking of the Christmas Cookies, just how do we go about coordinating this? Sounds like a job and a half.
Because Crusie operates ones, Jenny nodded.
Jen-T said:
Bob - So, do we get a little peek at the erotic stuff? Maybe you should post an excerpt or something. Snort.
Hah! Funny! Think Bob would go for that after we ripped poor Princess to shreds?
BCB said:
whiskey colored eyes. Hmmm? My personal favorite. I call them tiger eyes and often give them to my hero. Either those or eyes as black as coal. *grin*
mcb said:
Then later tonight watching Studio 60. Love that show.
Oh, me too. Love it so much I even stay up late. I know I'm such an exciting individual! But I don't get it until 10pm on the west coast, don't know about you easterners. And, I do get up at six each morning.
And hey, latest bit of good stuff, just got home from L.A. today to a message that I'm a finalist in the Where the Magic Begins contest, with my romantic suspense, Gone Tropical. Yay me! This is the first contest I'd entered the RS in and it was actually my rough draft. The manuscript has improved incredibly since then. So I'm more than pleased, I'm ecstatic.
Other news, my Beta readers returned their manuscripts this weekend (Gone Tropical) and one lady said she read my sex scene out loud to her husband. Freakin ay, they're neighbors. I'll never be able to look Michael in the face again. She said they'd both been sick with bad colds and this made them better. Yuck! Remember, way back when, this was the scene I was having so much difficulty writing and we discussed it here on the blog? So y'all helped immensely.
RG
Bought the CD audio version of DLD because I just can't stand to be stuck in traffic without a book! And it starts out so great, like visiting old friends. What a fun book. And it is not abridged so it should keep me busy for awhile. (although not sure about the guy's voice and his Rene accent is very annoying).
I caught up on my reading this weekend since it was so cloudy and cold. No gardening for me.
Congrats RG!! (and a belated Yay to Jen-T)
GP - glad to hear everything's okay with your DD. Big sigh of relief!
Aaron Sorkin rocks - I love Studio 60, too. I still miss Sports Night, though.
Bob, you big meanie, you can't tell us you have a scathingly brilliant idea for future collaborations and then not even give us a clue as to what it might be. That's just cruel.
Can't wait to read Agnes and Chasing the Dead. Hurry, hurry!
Jenny, hope you're feeling better soon. Please take it easy and don't push yourself too hard!
BCB said, “so he must be 6'5", dark hair, whiskey colored eyes. He is so ridiculously gorgeous it isn't funny. And he's polite.”
Mmm. Best thing I’ve heard since, well, ”...a very dark, erotic thing with an edge.”
BCB: Umm, so about that offer to live with you. How soon can I move in?
Congrats RG!!!
mskcur- muscular... Blogger is trying to help BCB’s description.
Congrats, RG!!! Way to go!
Yes, its on at 10 here too. And yes, its the only show I stay up that late for too. Sorkin rocks. And yes I miss Sports Night too. The suits at ABC were such idiots.
There is a Wonder Woman costume for dogs at http://mightygoods.net/
oorwurob- what my dog would say if I tried to get him into a costume
andi wrote "Jen-t - trying to explain all this to the DH, and all he cares about is how long will that glow paint last? Didn't even get a you need to get a life."
Oh crap. You are explaining how my glow in the dark nails got a rise out of my DH in the middle of the night? Good lord. In the dark there is...
MCB wrote: "If we send the Canadians over Niagra Falls in a barrell, they can pick up Jen from the hockey rink. It might be night time by then, but that's okay because Jen has those glow in the dark finger nails. Like Rudolph, she can lead the way."
I'll pick them up next weekend since I'll be driving right on by. No need for them to jump the falls in a barrell, that might hurt and SDCB is supposed to be taking it easy.
My nails are like Rudolph...snort. My DH still hasn't gotten over the shock. And he's thinking...crap, those nails are going to Vegas. Hmmmm, this might work. "Oh, honey, I'll change my glow in the dark nails, if you marry me all over again in a cheezy chapel in vegas." Yeah, like that will work.
BCB wrote: "He is so ridiculously gorgeous it isn't funny. And he's polite. And he brought a really nice bottle of wine. For me. I like Max. DD18 has a huge crush on him. Very understandable."
Hmmm, interesting...very intersting...
gaterperson wrote: "She's now relieved to discover her PMS"
Oh yeah, PMS is real all right, just ask my husband. Daughter and I are on opposite schedules. For two weeks the boys run and hide.
RG wrote: "Hah! Funny! Think Bob would go for that after we ripped poor Princess to shreds?"
Hey, speak for yourself. I loved princess, remember. Hell, I am a princess. Princess Jen, remember? Go Princiess. I always wanted her to stay put in the book.
congrats RG on the final - that is wonderful.
Funny story. I was reading a sex scene once written by a friend of mine while in bed and my DH leans over and starts reading over my shoulder. I say, "Hey, knock that off. I don't think so and so would appriciate it." DH says, "I just wanted to know what got you to breath so heavy." I said, "I was not." Then realized my pulse was racing. Yeah, that manuscript was tossed to the floor. My lovely husband had the nerve to thank the person the next time we saw them.
Ok, that's over with. And guess what? They cleaned up. Dishes are in the dishwasher, leftovers are in the fridge and the counters are wiped off. Sort of. Hey, no one is perfect. But these guys came damn close tonight.
And Max is way too charming. He'd better stay the hell away from my DD. Lori, I'll let you know next time he's coming over. Too bad he isn't 20 years older.
Andi: Girls are content to sit around and talk for hours on end, oblivious of their surroundings, but guys need something to do. If you really want to have the house where the guys hang out (not like that, geez), buy a pool table. Put it in a room where you can hear them, but they can't see you, add a TV and a stereo, and adopt the right attitude.
The correct answer to unexpected company -- no matter how tired you are, no matter how many of them there are, no matter how much it will cost to feed them, no matter how much noise they will make -- is always: Sure, no problem.
And having vast quantities of food on hand is a BIG help.
But teaching your children that the person who cooked is NOT the person responsible for cleanup is priceless. Get started on that now, because it can be a difficult thing to learn late in life. And it is so nice when it happens without you having to say a word.
I'm very pleased with my DS right now.
RG: Congrats on the good news!
bw
I know, a teaser with no info, but such is the business.
Robert, anyone ever tell you that you have a sadistic streak ? There is teasing --and then there is torture.
Speaking of torture... Jen, do you realize that both you and I are signed up for that online KOD class next month?
Just saying.
Might be a good time to practice being nice.
bw
Thanks for the congrats! Forgot to say, "Feel better Jenny, glad you're going to the Doctor. Listen to Bob."
I got a slap on the wrist last month for letting an allergy/cold go too long before making an appointment. The doc said, "You've got a wheeze, it's a mild asthma." I said, "Oh, you mean that little squeaky sound that makes me think a mouse is resting behind my sternum?"
... and I'm a nurse for crying out loud.
rg
BCB wrote: "both you and I are signed up for that online KOD class next month?"
With Bob? Oh geez, watch out. Poor man.
And BCB - why do you want to keep that wonderful boy from your darling daughter? I don't get it, he sounds like the perfect son-in-law! Snort! Next thing you know, you'll be a grandma!
Who wanted us to practice being nice?
Good night all.
Dearest Jen: There's nice, and then there's nice.
And then there's us. Poor Bob.
And you just wait a few years until your DD is older and then come back here and tell me about "wonderful boys."
Those wonderful boys went out for a few hours [ahem] and now are back and playing pool in the bonus room. Any minute now they will attack the remaining food in the kitchen, because that's what they do.
I'm going to bed now, confident in their ability to clean up after themselves.
bw
McB said...
And speaking of the Christmas Cookies, just how do we go about coordinating this? Sounds like a job and a half.
Actually, it appears to be a half-job....
Ahem...***COOKIE BIZ***
Thank you to all of you who voted on the cookie exchange. The poll has been running neck-and-neck over the Thanksgiving vs. Christmas/Hanukah timing (10 for US Thanksgiving, 9 for Christmas/Hanukah).
Do we want to split the cookie exchange in to two separate events? Splitting in to smaller groups could also make the exchange a bit easier for all the bakers. I'm game to organize for both if that is what we'd like to do...
Also, we've got (at last count)18 votes but only 11 people have signed up. I'm assuming there are some people out there who'd like to participate, but aren't ready to commit (and really, there is plenty of time).
Since it's only mid-October, I won't close the poll for a few more weeks. And the list won't close until about 2 weeks before we start.
Cookie News can be found at Another CB Taking Over the World
Wow, 54 comments before I noticed there was a new post, and so much stuff!
Congrats RG. Glad your DD's news was relatively good, GP. Congrats on your great report card GG. Did I leave anyone out?
For those who asked, my pinched nerve is very much better. Knocking on wood. Staying drugged to the eyeballs at night and doing the stretching periodically during the day did the trick.
Hey, Bob, how about a retreat on the Left Coast. There are quite a few CBs out here, too. There are a couple cool places in and around Santa Cruz, one in particular I know of that's right on the beach and sleeps quite a few. We'd promise to fill your schedule if you did one. If you're interested, email me and I'll look up the info. Ooh. There's also Friday Harbor off the Washington coast, with cabins and stuff. My friend's planning a knitting retreat there.
A scathingly brilliant idea? A series? That would be fun for us, and it seems like it would be easier on you guys to write, not having to develop new protags for each book.
Good luck on the book from The Unit thing. I did a novelization of a screenplay once, as a ghost writer. Let me just say that it's a whole lot harder than doing a screenplay from a book. All that stuff the audience looks at, well, there are no pictures in books. Well, in novels. So you've got all that work to do getting the setting in when all you have to work with is dialogue. I do not remember the experience fondly. Paid well, though. ;+)
Glad you made Jenny see the doc. We worry about her.
twbrwgq (green)
The word Bob read was grandly quaint.
Dang.
zujpd (red)
Zoetic ungulants just paddled Diane. ;+)
BCB: send max to me! oh, and i got whacked tonight. right after he took one of GP's amazing brownies (BTW, GP: all my housemates- greedy pigs- loved the ones i were willing to give out). and i'm sick. he's immoral and rude. cute, but he whacked me. he's going down (unless he talks his roommate- who owes me- into buying me some David sunflower seeds).
and GP: so glad your DD is ok. tell her there's about fifty virtual CBs holding her hand too.
RG: congrats! so, an excerpt will be appearing ___(fill in the date; i think by next week would be good)
JJ said "My lovely husband had the nerve to thank the person the next time we saw them." LMAO.
zaza said "There are a couple cool places in and around Santa Cruz..."
this is why zaza is my idol. i love you.
Why scathingly brilliant? Is this an American definition of 'scathing' that is new to me?
:-o
GP - yay for your good news!
RG - yippee for your good news too!
Michelle - loved Sports Night, get blank faces when I pay homage to any of my family. Love Aaron Sorkin, but love quirk a lot more. I miss Arrested Developement, and am obsessed with The Office.
Jen-t - I was trying to explain the whole blogger thing to the DH with the new cast in my life, who is not feeling well, the comaraderie, why I laugh out loud sometimes just thinking about something written, the whole enchilada, and that's where the nails came in.
BCB - new house will have a pool table. My sometimes pervert DH claims that we will put a pool in when the DS#1 is 18, ya know so all the cute girls will come to our house to swim. I've told him they may come once, then they will definetly ask DS, "Why does your dad just sit there in those dark glasses and read the paper? That is just creepy." It is important that I remind him I may be the only person around who thinks he's funny.
Cary - if you need help with the cookie thing let me know. jaloucks@earthlink.net
BDB, you are absolutely correct about the pool table and the food.
I have 2DS and my best friend has 3DS. Our homes were the gathering places having anywhere between 5-10 fellows eating, playing pool and watching tv.
We would not have had it any other way. All but 1 DS is not married and we all are waiting for him to fall as the others have done. It is great now to have DIL in the family.
jenb
AgTigress said...
Why scathingly brilliant? Is this an American definition of 'scathing' that is new to me?
I have a feeling we won't know exactly what he meant until he and Jenny are ready to tell us. But it sounds like there will be a lot of snark involved.
Cary: i just signed up for cookies over at your blog. I can't pass up cookies. I need to keep up my voluptuous figure. (snort)
RG: great for you! Hooray to all the great writers here!
styib: several times YEC infested broadly
OMG! My internet is back!!! Wooohooo!
And there is much Bob-blog!
Hmmm.... Bob, the title of your blog was B & B’s, edits, Agnes, The Unit... did the B & B's get lost?
You are such a tease!! this is not fair, taunting us with just enough information to make us nuts... aren't we nuts enough already?? :P
*sigh*
RG: congratulations on the writing! - I think it's pretty safe to say that all the CBs are cheering for you :D
Soooo.... has everyone been misbehav-er-*coughcough*-um-behaving according to CB standards? :D
I've had one of those weeks. The sort where you look at the writing you've been slaving over and think "holy crud, it's horrible! Possibly not even worth the computer memory it's taking up."
So. I'm pretending I didn't have that thought, lol, and am plowing on ahead.
I'm just wondering - do other writers among the CB's (and, of course Jenny and Bob if they care to answer) have this problemo, and how do you deal with it?
Ok, I'm going to return to my lurking... try to catch up on the comments and conversations...
rxwxxqpz (red) : I'm being punished for my absence. That is the only explanation for three Xs.... Well, that or the Blog-god hates me, lol.
I'm sorry I can't keep up with the comments--what a loser I am :(
But--Well done Bob getting Jeny to go to the docs--although if you don't frog march her there it'll never happen. Trust me, I know these things!!
I have been wavering about signing up for Bob's KOD course. They do the best online courses!!! But as I'm not planning to write a military book... I think it might be *stalking* to sign up so I can talk to Bob, LOL.
Erica,
This past weekend I had a WTF moment when I noticed that I'd written 27,000 words of backstory. I went through a brief "Why am I doing this to myself" period before I hitched up my tutu and got back to work. I'll be able to use some of it, but for the most part it all needs to be reworked.
I have no idea how some people can pop out three or four of these babies in a year.
jojtifg - Just open jently, 'til it feels good.
Bryan wrote: before I hitched up my tutu and got back to work
Bryan, is there something you're not telling us?
ootii- Overlap onions til it's interesting
Christina,
When have I ever managed to keep a secret from the CBs?
ojlxp - On Jen's laptop, 'x' procreates.
"27,000 words of backstory"????
Bryan, maybe we should collaborate. Oops, nope, come to think of it, I only set scene, so maybe if the two of us find a third to write dialogue?
(And BTW, thanks for the good wishes this morning. I've been a bit down, and you made me smile.)
BCB said, "He'd better stay the hell away from my DD." and then added, "Lori, I'll let you know next time he's coming over."
I'm not sure if I'm supposed to be flattered or feel like a sacrificial lamb sent to slaughter...
Meh, either way works.
OH: Don't you remember? You're going to marry BCB's DS, and I'm more than happy to take care of this Max character. Heh. Sorry you got rudely whacked while sick. At least you had brownies to comfort you...
Right now, I have these delicious treats from CMS just sitting here trying to tempt me, but the sight or smell of any food makes me want to vomit. Darn the luck. Maybe Bryan should have gotten them after all.
And before anyone follows my family's lead...NO, I'm not pregnant. YES, I'm sure. (They all were a bit confused when I went on to mutter, "stupid blooger flu.")
Geez, you give Bob a Roy Rogers bedspread and a stuffed animal and he gets all dark & erotic now. Pretty cool.
Lori wrote: "And before anyone follows my family's lead...NO, I'm not pregnant."
I had one of these moments in September, when I was staying at my mom's. For a few days in a row, as soon as I would finish my breakfast, I'd have to hoof it to the bathroom whereupon I emptied the contents of my stomach. Of course, I got 'the look' from my mother. I settled that question straight away. Don't know why I was upchucking. Probably channeling Kyra and her morning sickness. (stupid psychic blooger connection)
I'm telling you sick people (and I mean that literally, not figuratively): Airborne. I'm sure it's all placebo effect, but every time I feel like I'm catching something and take it, I don't get sick. There's a non-virtual (ie: real) flu going around here, too, and now I'm learning a new dance instead of just doing Argentine tango, so I am exposed to that many more potentially germy hands.
The lemon lime Airborne is slightly less vile than the orange Airborne, but I recommend drinking it as quickly as possible in one go and then following with a large glass of water. The taste doesn't seem so bad at first, but it seems to get worse as you go on.
Ah, Lori, feel better soon!
I used to get my caffeine fix strictly from tea. Couldn't stand coffee. This was some years back. Then I started feeling very queazy in the morning, even had to pull off the road on the way to work one day. Yeah had my friends and family nervous too even though I told them that wasn't it. Turned out my tummy developed an aversion to tanin (sp?) first thing in the morning. I can drink it later in the day, no problem.
Cary,
In truth, I haven't tossed all 27,000 words. Essentially I started the story in the wrong place and by the time I got to Chapter 5 it was an aha moment when I realized, this is the beginning. There is usable stuff early on, but I need to make changes in order to be able to save it.
But the initial instant of staring at a fresh and empty document was a bit heart-rending.
ealafht - Every author living asks for his tutu.
huh, blogger says that was too easy.
xyqzsjse - you see, this is why I usually don't do these. Oi vay. Let's give it a go.
Xavier yodels quietly. Zaza sighs jeeringly sans excitement.
G-G - Bath and body works has those good smelling purell-like things, and wipes.
Cary - I'm all about dialogue, it's the other stuff that gets me, like plot, character arcs, ya know the real writing. That's why I stick to comedy skit shorts. My DS 13 is following in my footsteps, and he is incredibly funny, dry, sarcastic, BRILLIANT!
Bryan - 27,000 words to be unused - maybe a prequel would be good, very George Lucas.
mcb - no tanins - should I go have a glass red wine for you? I will.
Lori - feel better, I can think of nothing worse than nauesia, I'd rather have a tension headache - I have to clarify b/c I get migraines and I don't want to even sort of imply to the headache cyber spies that I'm lookin' for them.
andi: Airborne is actually a pseudo-medication you drink, not a wipe. Just a collection of herbs and minerals, taken internally.
I don't use those anti-bacterial wipes and gels because they are no more effective than soap and water for cleaning but they are extremely hazardous to our collective long-term health. They kill 99.9% of bacteria? Well that other 0.1% is becoming drug- and cleaner-resistant and we're getting untreatable, multiple-drug-restistant bacteria and viruses as a result. Especially the super-resistant TB now cropping up in Europe. Scary stuff.
Or fascinating, if you're into epidemiology like me.
GlamourGeek - Thanks for the suggestion of the LemonLime Airborne. I agree the orange is übernasty.
And those Zicam zinc swabs? Evil concept & vile sensory experience (what, put MORE snot up my nose?!), but ooo the results! I've used them for the last 3 colds I had & each time the symptoms were less than half as bad as a cold usually is. I will try the nasal spray next time. It's gotta be nicer, can't be worse. (I know, FLW.)
And I hope I never lose my tannin tolerance! Red wine & tea are in the top 5 of my "Sustenance Requirements" list. Chocolate is up there too, but you knew that.
fxrwj -- Frankly, xenophobic rif-raf worry Jenny.
Dear Andi ... I can have all the tanins I want, just not first thing in the morning. So probably I should avoid the 'hair of the dog'; but the dog itself, no problem.
At least that's how it works with tea. Haven't tested the theory by drinking red wine in the a.m.
pjhbf: Pleasant Jenny hassles Bob furiously.
Thanks all, but it is mostly just mornings and it is just nausea. Not the first time and I'll get over it. (And I repeat. NO I'm not pregnant.)
Christina did raise an interesting point about sympathy sickness. I do have a SIL in Canda who is pregnant too...
G-G: I taught 1st grade. I've used my fair share of Airbourne. Good recommendation.
Lori whined: I'm not sure if I'm supposed to be flattered or feel like a sacrificial lamb sent to slaughter...
Geez. Did you or did you not express an interest in meeting this Max character?
First of all, Max is 23. That is too, um, let's just go with old. Too old for 18 yo girls who are college freshmen. You, OTOH, could probably handle him if you wanted to. If he wanted you to.
Second, while I'm willing to introduce the two of you, any sacrificial activity you're going to have to work out on your own.
Third, looks aren't everything dear. For all I know, he isn't even clever enough to give good banter or understand snarkiness, let alone any dark erotic things. You'll need to do your own research on that.
There now, does that give you something to think about other than nausea? Hope you feel better soon.
Back to work now.
bw
BCB, I have an 18 year old DD, and her 19 YO BF is such a loser, and I can't say anything, and he just sucks the life out of her and... Well, I would much prefer her with a 23 YO decent guy than the schmuck she is currently with. Can you send Max over to my place on your next road trip?
The Unit! DH has a look alike on that show. And DH is in the military too. Coincidence? Fate? Or just too much coffee so that my brain is making unnatural stretches? The jury's deliberating.
Feel better soon, Jenny. And good for you, Bob, to get her to go. Got to keep our Jenny above the weather.
So, this youth/ slightly less youth-y thing appears to have different sides to the argument. One of the things I get uncomfortable with in Suzanne Brockmann's books is that she seems to think it's OK, even desirable, for very young people (under 18 and therefore jailbait) to commit to one another (including sex), even if one of them is not so young (say, 5 years older and legally all grown up, out of college, etc.). This comes up as backstory in a few of her novels - people made terrible mistakes because they didn't get together when they were young, and there doesn't seem to be the feeling that they weren't mature enough to commit when they were that young, or that there's a HUGE gulf in maturity between end of high school and end of college (or at least there should be). Maybe it's just my age (I certainly thought I was plenty mature back then, though not ready for any serious commitment), but this makes me squeamish. I know some people find the love of their life when they're very young, but I still think they should wait 'til they're older to do anything really definitive.
Max does, indeed, sound like a prize, but I think he should go to someone closer to his own age, for now. 5 years is nothing at 35, but at 18...
Just my opinion, thought I'd ask for feedback, since we seemed to have a divergence, here.
I'm too hungry to do a verification, must go home, cook something (maybe AFTER I eat something else!). But I must cook, because I have nothing for tomorrow's lunch, either.
BCB: Okay, gonna go with flattered...
diane: I don't know. I was living with a 27 year old when I was 20 (my parents had no qualms at all; they trusted me to make my own decisions) and I was definitely the only adult under that roof...and even then smart enough to leave when I realized it.
I've probably gotten less sensible about such things over time. :)
I've known people who waited til long after college (~8 yrs) to marry and were divorced 9 months later and others who married quite young (19 or so) and are still doing just fine a decade later. I think it just depends on the person, not the age of the person.
Christina - your disordered guts when you were at home may just have been a carryover from when you were on the dig in Italy. Sometimes those things make the guts sensitive, and they can come over queer at unexpected moments for months afterwards. Perhaps because all the normal flora and fauna in the alimentary tract take some time to be restored and back in normal balance.
:-)
I am not sure which SB you are thinking about, but I agree with GG -- it depends on the people. My mom was 15 when she met my dad, 18 when they married. They had been married 70 years when he died. I always say that the secret to being married that long is to live that long - no I am not cynical - ha! Mom is still alive five years later. My mom always says the secret is a sense of humor.
mcb- well darn-it, I already had a glass of red, with your name on it, now I'm just gonna have to live with looking like a lush. And it's probably a good thing to have skipped the wine tannin tester in the am.
g-g - I also skip the hand sanitizers, I'm a soap and water kinda gal or baby wipes. and I'd've never picked you for an epidemioloy buff. I'm a sports junkie, way less intellectual.
BCB - unrequited crushes are what get us healthily into our twenties. Where we can then use our new worldliness and get that guy! and he does sound yummy. The fella before my DH, was ridicuously gorgeous too, a ringer for JFK-jr., and we lived in DC, man we got good tables, but he was about an inch deep. NOT the ONE!
erica said...
I've had one of those weeks. The sort where you look at the writing you've been slaving over and think "holy crud, it's horrible!"...do other writers among the CB's (and, of course Jenny and Bob if they care to answer) have this problemo, and how do you deal with it?
I wonder if the planners have that happen to them? Being a non-planner, I tend to find that I have a lot of extraneous crap to cut, but it's really all good because it's my brain putting out collateral info that I needed to consider anyway. ;+) I've never needed to change where a story started, probably because I come up with scenes, then build the book/story around them. So, they are, intrinsically, the crux of the story. Can you see why I'm not a planner?
Add me to the morning woofers. I used to get up, brush my teeth, then knock back a handful of vitamins, including several vitamin C. Then I did eat or drink for another couple hours. Turns out it was the vitamins, aggravated by all the acid in the C. Now I take them after a meal and don't get woofy in the morning. /;+) It was impossible to convince people I was sure I wasn't preggers because Brad and I were living together at the time. Never more than friends, but that's what they all say. Right?
glamour-geek said...
Especially the super-resistant TB now cropping up in Europe. Scary stuff.
That's scary. There's a resurgence of TB here, among seniors, for one group. It really got going well in prisons with the advent of AIDS, too, back in the 80s. My mom nearly died from it before it was finally diagnosed. She was, quite literally, at death's door before someone decided that seven years of progressively worsening cough maybe merited a chest x-ray. The ER doc said she probably wouldn't have lasted more than another day or two if they hadn't found it and started immediate treatment. Those coughs are nothing to fool around with, folks.
Ages and relationships - I know this gay couple in their 70s, now, who've been together since they met as college freshman. That's really beating all the odds. I graduated from High School when I was sixteen, so I was always around kids a year or two older than me. And I looked much older, too. I nearly married a guy who was 23 to my 17, but I could see that he wanted more from me than I, as a kid, really, was willing to give. The marriage would never have worked. Do I still have the occasional wonder-where-he-is-now moment? You bet. He was sex personified, smart, too. Of all the guys who thought they wanted to marry me, he was the only one I gave a second thought to. Even that young, it was clear that the others went by my appearance and pegged me as the perfect little wifey to sit home while they did the breadwinner thing, and I was sooo not that in my head or my heart. So, sometimes you have to give a girl credit for figuring these things out for herself. Sometimes not.
sbblra (blue)
Soon Bob brings lovely, rich apple-pie.
I should have previewed. That should have been "didn't eat for a couple hours," or words to that effect.
tnbvm (blue)
Twice now Blogger verfied me!
andi: i love Aaron Sorkin too. i am the biggest west wing fan, which is the best show in the world when he was working on it. (it was always good, but did go downhill once he left. i was so pleased they ended it as opposed to continuing it forever like ER).
erica: i've gotten those as a writer. once i was rereading an old story- which i got many "wow, so greats" about- and was like, WTF were they thinking? do not worry, you are not alone.
lori: oh yeah, i get the DS. ok, you have my blessings with max. i hope you feel better by the time he gets there.
diane: actually, for books, it kind of grosses me out when they are so young and are like "i'm going to marry him/her". though in Suzanne Brockmann, i don't think she really does this. most of the time they are either backstories (where age differences and getting married young were more usual) or like Tom's neice, where they did wait- what, twelve books and upteen years- to get married, it just happens to be with people they meet young. for the most part, i don't like the idea of big age differences (though BCB, in maturity i still probably kick his butt...uh, ignoring that last line) which 18 and 23 can be emotionally and experiencally, or "settling down" at a young age. i remember when my brother's best friend was ending HS he planned to marry this girl (who was a complete idiot, and had lots of other problems, but that's a seperate issue). luckily, they broke up before HS ended, but that would have been a divorce in less than three years. on the other hand, just look at JJ on the blog. 20 years, i believe, and they met when they were in HS. so basically, like g-g said, it depends on the person.
also keep in mind that i find it even weirder (is that a word? well, it is now) when at the end of the book they are getting ready to get married. the idea of being together such a short time (and most romances in books don't even last a year, if that, *) and then taking the huge step and getting married is almost incredulous. i know real people have done it, but less than six months after knowing a person is freaky.
* though this also has to do with a lot of long lost loves being put into books. which can be just as bad, because you have all these ideas about who the person was, as opposed to looking at who a person is, which authors will forget to do. so they are with people who don't match the ideas of who they should be, which is just doomed for failure. so if they are going back to someone they were once with or once knew- which normally annoys me anyways- at least make sure they are discovering who the person is, as opposed to was. sometimes an author will add the lines "i loved the girl you were, but i'm even more in love with the woman you are today", which at least slightly addresses the issue of change.
ok, i think i'm done for now. geez this is long.
good post zaza (i didn't notice it when i first previewed).
NJ CBs: you guys are the best! i just got the card you all signed. THANK YOU! so wonderfully sweet. though that hot bath it offers, ummm, i think i'll skip using the tub in the house next door. i've seen some of the people who have gone in it and it is not pretty. :)
You all are so funny. Poor Max. He would be mortified to hear us talking about him this way.
The main reason I said he'd better stay away from DD has more to do with the fact that probably NO ONE is ever going to be good enough for her, IMO. Or for DS either. Plus I've heard some stories (DS and Max and another guy share a house together just off campus). Not to mention that DS, in over-protective big brother mode, made a comment in reference to this once -- something about Max really is a nice guy and it would be a shame to have to beat the crap out of him. Plus I really do think Max has a girlfriend.
Erica: Yes, I have those moments all the time, when I look at what I've written and wonder WTH am I doing, I can't write, why am I even trying. Just try not to hit the delete button too many times, wait it out, and sooner or later you'll realize that you can't NOT write, even if it is all pure crap.
Speaking of which, apparently Jen is having an "in the darkness there is me" moment (at least, that's what she said on her blog) and I need to go slap her upside the head a few times before The Unit starts. Which I have to watch again this week because I've got to see what The GAM considers to be "wickedly well-written."
bw
OH wrote: also keep in mind that i find it even weirder (is that a word? well, it is now) when at the end of the book they are getting ready to get married.....etc
I agree with you. For instance, take some of Rachel Gibson's books. Just finished reading "I'm in No Mood for Love". Just because the protags knew each other when they were younger, doesn't justify, to me anyway, that seeing each other only a dozen times over the course of 6+ months is a solid enough basis for marriage. A better example would be the couple of books before that she wrote where the protags know each other for a very limited time and then get hitched. I like Gibson's writing but the blatant neediness of the woman for a husband as opposed to just a partner kind of turns me off. But I think that may be just my personal preference and probably others wouldn't agree since I see this in not only Gibson's works but many others as well.
I think that's why I like DLD. No plans for marriage at the end. Although I do admit, I am still a bit hesitant about the declaration of love after such a short period of time even if the circumstances were very intense.
If you couldn't already tell, I don't think the culmination or solidification of a relationship has to be marriage. I'm not knocking marriage--actually it's probably the exact opposite. I think marriage is taken too lightly these days (hence the high divorce rate).
All right, I'm going to stop now before I make and idiot of myself. *stepping off soapbox*