SHE WROTE: Oh, Canada, Part 3
I'm sitting in my hotel room, all alone so stop speculating, at 8AM, working for the next two and a half hours, all alone because Bob had to leave three hours ago to catch his flight home but he swears he'll be working while traveling the entire day because we'll both get home at midnight (he has hellacious layovers in Houston and Atlanta). [And speaking of Bob and in reference to the free-for-all going on in the comments, for those of you who once thought it would be darling if Bob and I were a couple, I'm more than ten years older than he is, so Ewwww to you, too. Sheesh.]
Where was I? Right, Bob's typing in the friendly skies, and I'm typing in my hotel room. Why? Because we discovered that Act Four was wrong, wrong, wrong, but it's okay because Bob discovered the key to the problem so we spent yesterday when we weren't teaching wargaming it (I used to call that brainstorming back in my innocent solo days) except Bob keeps forgetting I'm here. He was stretched out on the couch in my room staring at the ceiling, and I was on the bed with my laptop on my knees and my notes spread out around me in a semi-circle, trying to keep everything in order while I checked to make sure the flamingos had an arc (no, I am not kidding, you got a motif, you better make sure it arcs, boopsie) and he's saying, "I can fix this, I can fix this," and I'm saying, "I'm right here, Bob, remember me, your COLLABORATOR?" Then he went back to his room and a couple of hours later e-mailed me that he was hungry so I met him in the hotel restaurant and we talked about how we lost track of the five million dollars and why in one scene the entire cast of characters wouldn't have turned another character upside down to find it, and argued out another couple of points and probably looked like loons to everybody else there, and then we went back upstairs to our separate rooms again where I arced the five million and Bob must have beat his head against the wall because we exchanged these e-mails:
Bob: I'm fried. I'll make this work.
Jenny: Remember when WE used to make this work? Is there a reason you're tired of collaborating with me?
Bob: Ok. We're fried. We'll make this work.
But you know he's still trying to go it alone, up there in the bumpy skies across the Rockies. Sigh.
Meanwhile, I'm arcing subplots and cleaning up the first three acts and spiffing up the wedding vows and probably cutting this cute interlude where a little girl runs out of the seats during the wedding because I think it makes Bob gag. And I think we can keep a lot of Act Four which is good because during the worst of yesterday, we thought we were going to have to jettison most of it. But I think most of it is still good, it's just the climax that's bad, and Bob's loading weapons now so by the time he rolls onto his barrier island at midnight, he should have the firepower down, and by the time I see my river at midnight, Agnes should have swung her last frying pan and then tomorrow we explain to each other and swap scenes and we're good for the last polish. Nothing but good times ahead.
And some day I'm actually going to SEE CANADA. You know, besides the airport,the highway,and the conference hotel. I did see Montreal once, at night, during a conference. It was amazing. And I walked through Victoria one afternoon during a conference, that was lovely. I understand there's some real estate in between the two cities. Might want to check that out some time. More sigh.
And now, back to the flamingos, the five million, and the frying pan. The end is near. I'm thinking Wednesday, Thursday at the latest. Get the champagne ready. I'm going home and Agnes really is almost done.
[Note: Bob's birthday was Saturday. I did not forget.]

168 Comments:
Happy Birthday, Bob!
Had we known, we wouldn't have forgotten either.
bw
Happy Belated Birthday Bob!
Happy birthday, though belated to BOB.
We celebrated my DWs birthday over the weekend...all five kids were here, along with three grandkids...#2 son was "down from Turlock"...that has a nice western twang to it that I like. Anyway, we had a nice eggs benedict breakfast before he left for the drive back to Turlock.
Jenny, I'm sure that between you and Bob, all those "arcs" will wind up in a rainbow of pleasure for all of us when we read "Agnes"
eeeapb...blue
eee...all points bulletin
blogger struck
tgznhvi...red
sheesh
Happy Birthday Bob!
When Agnes is finished, I would be more than happy to show you Niagara Falls, a pretty little piece of real estate between Montreal and Victoria. But not until you've both had a chance to recover from all the airports, hotels and emails.
Don't worry, we no longer think the two of you would make a darling couple, mostly because we would read about you on the news somewhere and it wouldn't be all that pretty. But, about Bob and that ten years, he should be so lucky.
There have been charming forecasts of snow (though it's lake effect and not river effect) over the weekend, so on your way home from the airport watch out for the crazies who don't remember how to drive in a dusting of snow.
Take up Cherry Magic Cheryl on her offer to see Niagra Falls, it's very lovely.
Happy Birthday, Bob!
Little did I realize that I was toasting you too with the margarita at the Mexican restaurant on Saturday. (We were celebrating sister #2's upcoming birthday.) We drove two hours to celebrate the reopening of the place since it burned down a few months ago. Yes, food seems to be a major theme in my family's life.
I think the family photo went well. The dog was a complete spaz, but he was out of the house so it was expected. The place was decorated for Halloween and he kept wanting to play with the fake rats. Personally, I wanted to take an Adams Family Christmas photo, but that got shot down.
And I do just happen to have a bottle of champagne for when the celebrations starts.
zgixxes: to be found next to the zgevvens.
I never got any "Bob and Jenny are a couple" vibes, though I could certainly see how collaboration could provide the stuff with which an author could have ball plotting with. That said, a 10-year plus difference in age? No big deal. It's hard to generalize on age differences, anyway--so much depends on the individuals involved. If I were looking for someone, I'd be more interested in the quality and healthiness of the relationship we could have than I would any age differences.
Still dizzy, will see doctor later today. Sigh.
(((amc))) I'm chronically dizzy. It's no picnic. I hope they figure out what causes yours. In the meanitime, my specialist suggests lots of light and pedicures. Seriously. We have balnce receptors on our calves and feet. Pedicures help with their health.
Happy Birthday, Bob!
Jenny, never got couple vibes from you two ... more like brother and sister. That said, and having met Bob, I'm pretty sure he is of legal age pretty much anywhere in the known universe which negates an Ew factor on my part. That doesn't mean I'm in favor of any other kind of partnership. It would have a bad effect on the writing partnership, I'm afraid, and, as a Cherrybomb, that must be where my priorities lie. Maybe G-G and Mary got the phone number for that Tongan and can hook you up.
Good luck arcing flamingos. (Oops! There goes another one!)
Hmmm. Jenny and Bob? Maybe not, but let's not dismiss the age difference thing out of hand, all right?
G&T
third try is fubjnxy. I think you might imagine what I could do with that.
And chocolate has antioxidants and releases the fun endorphins.
(Seriously, hope amc and cms are feeling well. For me, a quick *snort* of humor goes a long way no matter what the ailment!)
vfuvwr: very fuzzy ultralights vibrate wrong - really!
Get a grip, blogger.
vptqzdd: Very perturbed, taking quilts, Z's, day dreams.
ipeaisvu: (eeewww)
I ponder each addition I supply (to) verifier usually.
Happy Birthday Bob. Hope Canada treated you well Saturday.
OH, since I was tearing apart my basement in order to start remodeling the kitchen, I didn't read your qestion to me from Bob's last blog until today. Go back to his comments for my answer.
I'm sucking on some dark chocolate m&ms right now. I feel wonderful : )
Trust me, ten years does not make for an 'ewwww' factor. It all depends on the maturity level of the guy involved. (I always assume the woman is already mature) :)
Of course, if Bob is trying to work out this sex scene you're making him write while in your hotel room, then we'd have something to talk about. Otherwise, I see you two as great collaborators.
Next time you come to the Pacific Northwest, let us know. I'm sure there's plenty of us around who'd love to give you a tour!
Happy Birthday Bob! He must be happy, it's candy corn season.
Jenny, the Cristal is on ice for you both.
As far as age difference in relationships of consenting adults, I'm going to borrow from Jane Fonda here, and say "Stay out of my (bed) room.
MCB has a very funny post on her blog about the state of civilization. I think Jenny's "dude" may have been mentioned, by deed not name. So that's Dee and MCB whose blogs I've pimped in the last couple of days. Jen's says she's offline for a few days while she goes insane, or perhaps she's already there. BCB's blog was great as always. That woman is a writer. Bryan hasn't updated his in a while. Neither has Conscripted Cherry.
What, me procrastinate? Anyone want to tell me how I can link all the CBs to my blog (shameless self-promotion)
I guess I better get back to RL. The dog just chased the cat across my manuscript. I must rescue it before the demon leaps off the page and incinerates one of them. She's having a very bad day. I'm ignoring her.
And BTW, if you missed it CMS metioned that she too now has a blog. Quite philosophic and a pretty good visual as well. She should try her hand at writing, I'm thinking.
I'll get around to linking folks eventually, but you know it took me a month to get a blog up and running so don't be holding your breath.
The discussions about age differences between men/women have been fascinating. I'm thinking some of the differences in attitude among commenters is also age-related and when born. Yeah, Brian, also sex-related. Reversing the sexes in B's story would have got the guy in jail. Or shot. Or dingle dangle-deficient.
I'm thinking OH should do a paper in one of her classes on marriage ages vs time-of-century of marriage. There must be lots of data out there - censuses (censusi, AgT?), etc. We CB's might contribute some anecdotal stories. Did you all know there are more single person families in the US now than non-singles? That would have been a cause for family value consternation in the 1950's. Just food for thought...
ktcggdxo: Oh, pshaw! Keep The Cougars, 'Gators Going Down eXtant Opportunities. Well, whadju expect?
Happy Birthday Bob.
You know, I never ever thought of them as a couple. Was I out of the loop of speculations.
Let me clarify the ewwwwwww. If one person is 12 and the other is 22 ... then it is an ewwwwwwwwww. If one person is 22 and the other is 32 it is NOT an ewwwwwwww. It's not the years, it's the chronology. Work with me here! Don't make me have to defend my ewwwww again!
Glad the book is swinging in on it's final vine. I look forward to it happily.
Tweety has discovered rebellion. She, with long monkey arms, got a bread knife off my counter. I said "give that to Mommy" which she took to mean "run away and make Mommy work for it". The time between when she started running with a breadknife and when I caught her and removed said knife was the longest 3 nanoseconds of my life!
GatorPerson,
I think part of the double-standard arises because men are still seen as the initiators in sexual relationships. So a woman who succumbs to the advances of a teenage boy is not viewed as a predator, whereas when an older man has relations with a teenage girl, he is viewed as having seduced her.
The reality in either situation could be completely different. And in truth, I am much more comfortable with the idea of me having been with my physics teacher's sister, than I would be if it were a teenage girl in the flip circumstance. And that's even after having lived through the dynamics myself.
It is a double-standard. But it's one I'm not actively fighting against any more than I want to see women in combat.
Besides, I'm old now, so people sometimes cut me a little slack for my quaint ways.
Happy Birthday Bob!
tzbwcvn: To ZaZa, bw could vocalize nervousness.
Happy belated b-day, Bob.
I don't want to harp on this, but for me, it's not a maturity issue with a large age gap, it's the experience. I would like my significant other to actually know what I mean when I refer to Billy Joel, the Berlin wall, the Challenger explosion, Dr Who, Green Day, the Smurfs, etc. I know it sounds stupid, but it's what I feel.
And on a completing unrelated topic---my visa troubles have now been alleviated. They are extending it free of charge which is wonderful compared to the alternative where I would have had to fork over 250 GBP.
((hugs)) to all who need them.
And, OH, don't be afraid to come back and play. You've taken a bit of a beating concerning your miscalculated age comments. We've all been there. When I was your age, I was really mean and joked with my mom that when she was younger, she went to school with the dinosaurs. I was joking, people. Weirdly enough, she did find this amusing...
Gatorperson - you are quite right: perceptions of age-disparity in sexual partners are certainly altered by the age of the observer, but they are also pretty strongly influenced by culture. I have noticed that Americans are in general much more concerned by the respective ages of sexual partners than most Europeans are.
I don't know why this is - unless it is the flipside of something that Jenny mentioned: the occasional blatant sexualisation of girl children, which is much more obvious in American society than it is even in the UK, and certainly far more than in other Old World cultures.
I know the sort of sub-culture that has those ghastly beauty contests for tiny girls is only small, but the very idea seems truly perverse to nearly all non-Americans. It is a real paedophiles' charter, but in a society that is, at the same time, hysterically terrified of paedophilia (and is unable to distinguish, apparently, between actual paedophilia and the inappropriate sexualisation of physically mature, but emotionally immature, adolescents).
As I said before, we have to step aside from our own cultural conditioning to see these things more clearly. Anthropologists and archaeologists do that as a matter of course (or should do): it is part of our training. But it is really helpful for others to try to do it too. It is harder for Americans, because a smaller proportion of you have visited or lived in other countries than Europeans, so it is easier for many of you to regard all aspects of your own culture as universal.
And as I said, some aspects are universal. It is ALWAYS wrong, and always has been wrong, for a mature adult to make sexual advances to a 5-year-old. This is a universal law of nature. Whether it is necessarily wrong for an adult to enter into a sexual relationship with a 14-year-old depends on many, many factors. It is very seldom a good thing, but there are situations where it has been acceptable, and indeed, normal.
Kyra just summed the whole discussion up nicely on the last blog - Age & Maturity are very different things
OH hasn't retreated in the past, I'm sure she'llbe abck. She loves to lob stuff into the crowd then watch us explode. Kids, gotta love 'em.
Christina: now i am humming the Smurfs theme song.
Thank you.
la la lala lala, la lala lala....
what's that about age and maturity? hehe
Christina,
I love those "When I was a boy..." stories. I usually just keep adding and adding until they are so outlandish nobdy can keep a straight face.
I may have mentioned the one I told when the nephew didn't like potatoes.
"When I was a boy, we didn't even have pototoes. We had to eat dirt. And we liked it. We didn't have soup either. Just water, with dirt in it. And we ate it. And if we put in too much dirt, we ate mud. And we liked it. We had meat though. Meat, dirt, and water. Eat your potatoes."
Bryan you left out the part about having to walk to school in a blizzard and it was all up hill ... both ways.
MCB--you forgot barefoot too. When my grandfather would tell the story to my sister and me, he always made sure to note that the walk in snow uphill both ways was done barefoot.
Although this was a man who also called whipped cream cashlaba. I don't know if it was a Tennessee-ism, an Iowa-ism or just a grandpa-ism. Still amusing all the same.
gymnicy -- I think blogger is telling me to stop eating apple crisp and get off my bum.
Bryan's story reminds me of Stone Soup.Hmm, wonder what's for dinner?
Happy belated birthday, Bob!! My DH's birthday was also Saturday (Oct. 21). Louis - was that your DW's birthday also??
Must have been a good day!!
taxlopoo - tax loop holes -or- tax lopoo
Well hell, CMS. Here I am all set to complain and whine about how incredibly STUPID some people can be (customers) and find you're over here saying nice things about me. That was so sweet, you made all the bad things go away. Thank you, Sheryl. [I really didn't think anyone was even reading it, and was considering just getting rid of it. Huh.]
But I still dislike Mondays. And stupid customers.
bw
Is anyone else wondering how you arc a motif? Characters I understand, but flamingos and five million, arcing? Thinking about that is making me a little crazy.
And what could possibly be so wrong in Act Four that they thought about getting rid of most of it?
I have a feeling I'm not going to read Agnes so much as study it. Sigh.
bw
It's been ages, I know, but I had to throw in my useless 2 cents. What's 10 years between partners to those who've read "Anyone But You"? Personally a 10 year gap does tend to give me the Ew factor, just because my ex was 2 years younger but 10 years behind in maturity. He had an IQ nearly equal to my pants size. Husband #2 is 6 years older (7, he reminds me, for 5 months of the year) but probably my equal in maturity, except during football season. At the rate I'm going, I'll have to marry a 60 year old next time around just to be impressed.
Carla (who's now going back to her insane job where she's gone from laid off to saved to wishing she'd been laid off to begin with)
(blue) FIXAH - what you call a handyman in Maine
Agtigress: the postmodernist approach would maintain that anthropologist cannot ever fully step outside of their culture preconceptions ... they can just try real hard.
But I do agree Americans in general are weird about sex ... I mean a culture where teens are still 'children' but are invited to dress like overtly sexual nymphs is confused. Notice -- the beauty standard for a model is basically the body shape of a pre-adolescent with adult breasts.
When I was 24 my youngest brother called me a 'fossil'. I tell my godchildren stories about the harships of live befoer VCRs and cell-phones. I'm not sure they believe me. Although the 7 year old did ask me ... "What's a VCR?"
The smurfs are singing in my head too.
Kyra said: Agtigress: the postmodernist approach would maintain that anthropologist cannot ever fully step outside of their culture preconceptions ... they can just try real hard.
* * *
Umm - that's a postmodernist approach? But it was what I was taught as an archaeology undergraduate in 1959!!
Of course one cannot cast off all one's cultural conditioning, and nobody expects to be able to do so: it's a remote and unattainable ideal. The important thing is to try. But many otherwise well-educated people don't even realise that there is such a thing as cultural conditioning, and that is something that does need to be challenged - the casual assumption that one's own culture is a universal norm.
:-D :-D
Tigress, one of the things I loved about living in Europe was just that--the chance to see outside of my own culture. In Europe, you can drive for a few hours and be in a place where the language and the customs are different; in the States, you can drive for days and it's all the same country. And there aren't very deep layers of history over here, either. Something dating from the 1700's is incredibly old over here, but I was in buildings in Europe that dated from the 1600's or even the 1200's that were in every day use, and nobody thought anything about it.
My doctor thinks I have benign positional vertigo and has referred me to the ENT's. I just want this over with. Hugs back to everyone. CMS, pedicures? Cool!
For all those suffering under the Smurf theme song...
Shall I help by mentioning Fraggle Rock.
Now really, which is the lesser of two evils?
I think there is a book out now about mothers not dressing their 6 year old daughters as a skank. They grow up way too fast as it is. And what is with the fixation of adults being hairless? Is this another manifestation of being fixated on looking young? Or having desires for teens? Seems just wrong to me.
Ok, enough rant for now.
See, this just goes to show that it's not the age, it's the culture. I don't know the smurfs song (or at least I don't think I do). Unless it's because I'm too old. Please don't say it's that.
Someone gave me a hard time for smiling too much while we were singing an anthem in church on Sunday. It was "For the Beauty of the Earth", the John Rutter version. OK, it's a lovely setting of a hymn with the refrain "Lord of all, to thee we raise this our joyful hymn of praise". It seems to me that smiling is the thing. Also, I hear it helps one keep from going flat. But then I smiled at myself in the mirror to see how scary it was - and let's just say, no worries about being taken for a twenty-something. Possibly frightening only to myself, but oh, well. And I have ANOTHER birthday coming.
What I think is funny is how people (especially men?) fail to update their "search image" for potential partners. I'm not saying that one should eliminate people outside of an approved age bracket, but I do think that, when one is retired, completely white-haired and suffering from osteoporosis, one ought to at least consider women one's own age, as well as the twenty- and thirty-somethings. Most twenty-somethings look too young to me (though occasionally pleasantly decorative), but, as G-G said, some men my own age have a look that I can't help but put in the "dad" category.
I think it's very impressive that Jenny wants even the fake flamingos and $5 million to grow and change. There's no rest for the inanimate - which leaves us animated (more or less) types very much on the hook. Darn it.
lhqnf: liquified honey quantifies nutritional fructose
hjpwnlcm: Help Jenny's prostitots wear nice little child muu-muus.
a friend's dad: i had to walk five miles in the snow uphill, both ways, barefoot, after feeding the cows and chickens (did i mention he lived in the city?) eating dirt for dinner cause we couldn't afford anything else!
my friend: daddy, it doesn't snow there.
*****
GP said "I'm thinking OH should do a paper in one of her classes on marriage ages vs time-of-century of marriage."
oh yeah, give me the work. :) actually, i do like the idea of doing a paper on this subject we have been talking about. hmmm...how to work it into my classes.
BTW: how's DD doing?
christina: ha! can't get rid of a young whipper-snapper that easily! i actually knew all of those things...ok, not what Dr. Who is from, but i recognized the name.
ag said (based off what Jenny said): "the occasional blatant sexualisation of girl children, which is much more obvious in American society"
it's not that occasional. America is a rape-culture, and just glancing at advertisment, language, the legal system, and millions of other factors it is easy to see (along with the inherent racism and heterosexism of the culture). we watch five year olds parade around in more make-up than i wear in a year, see more "sexual appeal" in ads than the product they are selling, have more women in prison for self-defense than actual murder, treat victims of rape as if they are to blame because of what they are wearing/doing, praise women for reaching the same weight Holocaust survivors had, have fathers watching young teen actresses with lust (sending the message to daughters on how to get a man's attention), have barely any protection laws for incest, rape, molestation, and abuse, focus more on what the "victim" (who is really a survivor) did or didn't do than the person perpetrating the crime, have...*looks around* geez, when did i get up here? someone get me a ladder.
but anyways, the sexualization in American culture is not that occasional. i think i may have gotten off subject. well, first time for everything here. :)
*sigh* i have a book to read and then an essay to write. i'll try to be back soon.
oh god, i think i broke blogger. badly. sorry Cbs.
amc - *WHAT* is benign about vertigo?? That doctor should have to deal with it!!
I've suffered from vertigo when I've tilted my head to the side in a certain way, and it was always because my neck was out of alignment. Maybe a visit to a really good chiropractor (the kind that takes x-rays first) would be in order!
Tigress - I just read in interview on Running with Quills (author blog) about a woman named Catherine Johns (British, museum curator) who just published a book about horses called Horses, History, Myth, Art. Didn't you mention sometime back that you were working on a book about horses and the history thereof? Are you still doing that? Is it this kind of book?
Interview here:
www.runningwithquills.com
qmuyis
quickly, many use Yex in scenes
'Prostitot' is an amazingly apt coining, isn't it? The word will come to mind every time one sees pictures of those tiny 'beauty queens' in their spangles and tarty make-up. Honestly, what are their mothers thinking?
The thing is, many little girls are only too keen on participating in that kind of dress-up, wholly innocent of the kind of attention it might attract.
BULLETIN for those who are thinking about Tal, she commented on Running with Quills. She sounds just fine.
WTH? A Buffalo teacher convicted of sex crimes has been sentenced to three years of exile in Canada???? Excuse me? I think that's taking our niceness too far. He's an American living in Canada so as long as he stays over here, he avoids jail time. I am so not impressed. He's 35, his student was 15.
My dad says the crime was an inappropriate comment which the paper and FoxNews did not get into. So I'm just going to go over here now and see what all the details are before I continue to fuss.
Just popping in for a minute to wish you all a Happy National Mole Day!
I'll be back as soon as I can work up the nerve to tackle the backlog. I stopped following ANY of my blogs while I had a bad cold with bronchitis and laryngitis and couldn't sit up that long. I think it was a variety of Dutch Elm Disease.
Love to all from The Mole.
ojdpql -- Oh, Jenny dear, please quit laughing.
Happy, happy birthday, Robert. You're a Libra like me. Great people, huh? *grin* We never procrastinate, never, never, ...
Jenny, great news. It's a wrap! By the end of this week huh? We're waiting patiently for Agnes. We have complete faith in you two ... just get us the damn book already.
rg
rktjtxa
Robert kept telling jenny to x-out
all (sex scenes)
CHRISTINA SAID....For all those suffering under the Smurf theme song...
Shall I help by mentioning Fraggle Rock.
Now really, which is the lesser of two evils? "
I sooooo miss the Fraggles! And the smurf song is much worse. At least the Fraggles had words! "Dance your cares away, wory for another day..."
Ok I'll stop now. I am still trying to figure how I can use the word Prostitot in front of my friends. It is a very funny word, that is all too alarmingly true.
Wait a minute, CMS, you're sending mixed signals here. If you don't think Bawb and Jhenni are or should be a couple, might it not look bad to their public if they show up together at a noted honeymoon spot like Niagara? Separate trips, surely.
Jenny, I'm glad that /someone/ around here appreciates Harold and Maude. I like the idea of doing what I damn well please when I'm that age. For that matter, I like the idea of doing what I want at any age ;)
Frankly, the only thing I've read so far that provokes the "ewwww" response is (forgive me, Louis) the idea of someone living in Turlock. No doubt there is some kind of therapy out there for this reaction. ("Mary, you /like/ living where it's hot! You /like/ it!" repeated several times.)
AgTigress, I meant to say this a few blog entries back, but I agree with your take on Americans' naivety vs. Europeans' more cynical approach to live. I didn't grasp this concept until I lived in Europe, but Americans are more open or trusting (to quote one unkind Brit more 'fatuous') and in general less cynical. I also agree with whoever responded that the current generation is less trusting than the one before it; I think that's true. But Europeans are much further along this road than we are. Which brings up the question -- is this just caused by moving to a new continent, facing a new frontier? If so, has anyone noticed this tendency amongst Aussies? Kiwis? Argentineans? Or is it just a North American phenomenon?
The mole is back! Okay, Miss Tal, you can give up the pretense of being unwell. With a tan like that, you've clearly been spending your time appreciating the spring weather in Tierra del Fuego.
Hey Gang, I don't know if any of you have Lord & Taylor where you reside but... while I was wandering the shops yesterday I saw a long skinny dog (minature dachshaund?) figurine, like the one in Faking It. It was wearing a santa hat & booties and I instantly thought of Jenny.
I noted the brand name but have (of course) forgotten it already. But its out there if you think it is something she would like to have.
Cheers,
jpoorman
bon cheri bomb said...
Is anyone else wondering how you arc a motif? Characters I understand, but flamingos and five million, arcing?
I keep picturing flamigos whizzing by overhead like footballs, and a sports announcer doing the critique ... a la Howard Cosell ... "a bit to high on that one, fans, but it had really good distance."
Tal!!!! Come back Tal!!!! Shoot nobody around here bothers to keep up ... you know the rules, just jump in wherever the water is deep enough! Hope you are feeling much better and that we'll be seeing you around more often. Tigress has had to carry the burden all by herself.
Kyra said ... Notice -- the beauty standard for a model is basically the body shape of a pre-adolescent with adult breasts.
I always wondered if anyone else noticed that fashion designers were designing clothes to fit the bodies of 12yo boys.
On prostitots and the sexualization of young girls. A few years ago there was a fuss because men in the stands were looking at the butts of the cheerleaders. Sounds pretty eewww, right? But see the cheerleading uniforms had the school logo written across the seat. So pardon me, but why were they shocked that someone was looking? And what was the teacher in charge thinking? And why did the parents go along with such tackiness?
CMS: report back.
Jason Alexander was on Bill Maur awhile back when that teacher who had sex with her student got out of jail. he did an amazing job explaining that the double standard is a serious business that makes light of what male victims would go through.
i always remember this because, well, it was Jason Alexander, who my mom absolutely hates, but even she said had some good points.
*sigh* showing my youthful ignorance here, but what are Fraggles? yes, you may pity how ignorant the youth is today.
OH, I nearly drove down to CA to bean you after your comments on the last few posts. Over 30=old? And dissing George Clooney? How could you???
But as you reminded us, you are still young and ignorant... ;-)
And WTF? I leave you all alone to play for a few days while I get to know my new doggy, and I have to catch up with 200 comments? Eeek!
BTW - Naming him Fred might get me accused of false advertising. Fred CB is far from being a couch potato. When we go for our walks, I'm not sure who's wearing who out...
Off to find a website that talks about how to train your "mouthy" dog....
Thank you, Humane Society!
Fumfky - What you doggy may smell like after a day tromping through the leaves!
Hey good to see you backTalI thought of you the other day at an Antiques and collectables show they had MOLE TRAPS I did a double take, no one bought them I hasten to add.
Happy Belated Birthday Bob
Being somewhere well over 30 I remember my friends and I playing with dolls when I was 10 or 11 [before barbies}. Wearing ankle sox at age 15 to my job as an office girl. When we were 14 my best friend's mother died, and she had to look after her father and young brother, do cooking, laundry etc.
When I came to Canada I was amazed at the childishness of the 16/19 yr olds [not called teenagers then] and the lack of responsibility, I know now that many rural children were not so.
I wonder if the fact that the parents are trying to stay young which is so important in this society tends to make them make their children look older while not teaching them how to be responsabill[?sp} therefore always childish?
Oh boy its hard to get of the soap box
I'm back! Just got out of my bubble bath and while floating around began thinking about arcs and flamingos.
So maybe they can arc by learning how to not poop on the decking around the pool. Heh. They can go through training, learning to do their business on the grass in the corner of the yard so that it can be easily hosed into the flower beds and be added fertilizer. Heh.
Hey, it's growth. Training flamingos is not easy. Heh heh.
Now, I bring this to your attention only because we have major problems in the fall in the desert due to tons of coots coming to our lake. The lake has concrete paths surrounding it and we all walk our dogs around the lake. The coots walk across the paths from the water to snack on whatever they can find in the grass, then they leave their droppings to go take another swim.
The HOA Board of directors, has tried everything and it costs a fortune to hire people to hose down the paths and then the area only stays clean for an hour or two anyway. This year, they decided to take action. We have many elderly people who like to walk and they're afraid someone will slip and get hurt.
So, guess what the Board got? A half a dozen giant plastic Moot heads that have golden eyes that reflect the sun and the head sits a little above the water line and just floats around. Six Moots, floating on my lake ... so far so good ... coots are kept at bay. Who knows, if this doesn't work, maybe next year we'll get flamingos.
rg
tfxlz
that fiery x-tra little zing
rg,
Sorry you're having all those problems with coots. And here I thought old Tom was an only child :(
bkqbj - burger king's quarter-barbecued jaberwockies
(see, BCB, I do too post)
BCB sez: Characters I understand, but flamingos and five million, arcing?
Darlin'! Haven't you ever heard of funds maturing? :)
Late catching up. I spent the day climbing outdoors on real rock for the first time in about 3 years, despite the fact that my ribs are, yet again, a little out of whack. They'll recover. Gorgeous, unseasonably warm days in which to climb outdoors with fun friends do not come around that often.
Just, because of AgTigress's comments, wanted to point out that our legal age of majority is quite arbitrary. Why 18? Why not 17? Or 20? 32? 15?
Also, that Canadian law about 14 being legal if the other party is under 18 is a little odd. I mean, imagine a 15 and 16 year old meet and start dating. Maybe a year later they actually have sex (at 16 and 17, respectively). It's legally ok. Then the older one turns 18 and it's not ok for a year, even though they've been together for 2 years and have already had sex together for year?
And have to note that while I have no statistical evidence, my experience is that *white* America is quite rigid about age differences. I've found black Americans tend to me much more relaxed about age discrepancies, but as I said, that's just my observation/acquaintance. I have insufficient information about Native Americans, Asian Americans, Latinos, etc. which also have lots of variety with those larger categorizations.
I didn't climb much, but I'm totally worn out. Jeez.
So, GiGi, if you prefer climbing with friends... does that make you a social climber?
vjnwosx - what vjnwo prefers to do on his day off
Happy Birthday Bob
I have only three words about the prostotots--Jon Bonet Ramsey.
talpianna you've come back to us. Hallelujah! You don't have to read everything to keep up. Just jump in anywhere we won't care. We have missed you.
blue eddkeouw
Even darling daughters keep everyone out until writing's (done).
green bkjjx
Bob keeps junking Jenny's Xpressions.
mary said "So, GiGi, if you prefer climbing with friends... does that make you a social climber?"
ROTFLMAO. *wipes tears from eyes* i missed you mary.
BTW: hey tal and rg and SDCB!
g-g: the way i've understood that is that it's only if charges are pressed against you. cops don't go looking for it. so yes, a parent could press charges. but that also seems like something really hard to prove- unless there's pictures it could be sex with someone else, not really any way too know who.
OH--If you want to know who the Fraggles are, check out this link:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fraggle_Rock
HAPPY BELATED BIRTHDAY BOB!!!!
I don't see why Jenny and Bob can't be a couple. Burke and Hare* were a couple. Bonnie and Clyde were a couple...
*(Look it up? Do I have to do all the intellectual heavy lifting around here? What did you do while I was missing--sit around and drool?)
Yes, people--THE MOLE IS BACK!
qkrcc -- Quick! Kiss Robert's cute chin!
Mary: apropos your comments about American and European differences in cynicism. I think it does have to do with some degree of cultural isolation, and also, I'm afraid, cultural hubris. Early Americans started off with a fairly clean slate, with a clear and intelligent idea of a fair and equitable constitution, with direct knowledge of some of the abuses that went with social and religious intolerances in their countries of origin. The way that the USA was set up does, indeed, give you all something to be proud of, very different from a mishmash of inherited situations and attitudes going back countless generations.
But the lack of firsthand knowledge of other countries in a majority of the population helps to feed the false assumption that I have already mentioned, namely the idea that one's own culture is a universal ideal to which all the world should aspire.
The USA is still, in terms of the sweep of world history, in the actively imperialist phase that Europe passed through between the early 18th and early 20th centuries. In the 19th century, Britain also believed that its culture was not only the Best Ever (it wasn't), but that it should be exported to, and even firmly imposed upon, the rest of the world, for their own good. This is not wise, and probably never was, but France, Germany, Belgium, the Netherlands all did that kind of thing at that period, trying to 'improve' the world in our own Christian, early industrial-economy image. It is a natural phase through which powerful countries go, and which, a few generations later, they heartily regret. Like adolescence, I suppose.
Cynicism is thus a natural consequence of millennia of history, much of it painful. Understanding, if not positive acceptance, of other cultural standards is actually the only possible future for humanity, if we can bring ourselves to that realisation. Europe is further along the road than the USA because of our far greater and longer exposure to cultural variety and to the successes and inevitable subsequent reverses of war and conquest, but, heaven help us, we still have a long, long way to go, too.
:-(
agtigress: Hate to break it to you but 'modernist' theory was 1930s-40s and then the postmodernist school started with a bang in the 1950s. WTF are they going to call the current theoretical perspectives? :0)
Also, if the USA is in an adolescent phase ... is it too young to have sex?
Okay, on the youth/prostitot thing. I did a theoretical paper in 2000 that followed the feminist movement and correlated it with fashion 'ideals'. Whenever women were being 'good girls' -- you know, shuting up and making babies, we were allowed some weight and looked like women not girls. The 1900-1910s, 1930s, 1950s ... all times of feminist 'rest' and curvy gals. The 1980s, home of the backlash, saw models that were 'fat' compared to the eras directly before and after them. Times of female empowerment saw the 'boyish' look. Think of the flatchested flappers of the 1920s, the waif of the 1960s, the toothpicks of the 1970s and the 'heroine chic' like Kate Moss of the 1990s. When women fight back we are coerced by culture to assume a infantile and nearly impossible body shape.
When does a female human have poreless-seeming skin, no noticable secondary hair on the arms or legs, tends to be very thin 'coltish' legs and arms, and has no hips? When a female is pre-pubescent. So the fashion ideal is an 8 year old girl who is overtly sexual and has a womans breasts. So she is as powerless as a child but as sexually available as an adult. Creepy no?
For a while they sold g-strings at Baby Gap. Mother of Bob, what are parents thinking!?!
So the anti-coot moot works huh? Good to know.
Ta ta for now ya'll. Let me know what you think of my theory that fashion is a response to feminism.
Do not get me started on high heels.
Christina said: For all those suffering under the Smurf theme song... Shall I help by mentioning Fraggle Rock.
AAAARGH!
Down in Fraggle Rock!
OH, they're making a movie of it soon, so you shall be in the dark no longer.
cbevfo Cherry Bombs envision virtual friends overseas
Kyra...g-strings for babies? At the risk of offending Jenny, now that is ew. Really, what is the purpose of that? Then again, I never understood the concept of piercing the ears of a 2-month-old (so they can pull them out and swallow them), either, so what do I know.
Besides, I thought those g-strings were Bryan's.
well, to be fair the g-strings were for the 5 year old set. I mean, that's just dandy isn't it? What kind of a world do we live in if a five year old cannot learn that her ass is eye-candy?
Bryan prefers the term "thong". Much more macho.
The return of the Old Coot's kin, artificial Moots, maturing funds, social climbers and arcing flamingos.
And to think there are people out there who don't start their day with CherryBombs. Bless their hearts.
In case anyone was wondering ...
American Coot.
Kyra - I have never taken much notice of the various isms, in art, architecture, archaeology, history, whatever; anyway, people who can't think up better designations than 'modernist' and 'post-modernist' really are not trying very hard, nor looking ahead.
But good grief, if the 1950s were 'post-modernist', there should have been AT LEAST two -isms since then (one per generation) - and in my field of archaeology, they certainly have been! Don't know what they called them, though. Presumably post-post-modernism and post-post-post-modernism. So I was surprised to hear that a basic principle that I learned nearly 50 years ago could still be post-anything, except post-War. Modern European archaeology had barely had time to be modernist, let alone post, by the 1950s. Rather like clothing fashions, I just let these things flow past and hang on to the principles that seem to me to get results in terms of advancement of knowledge.
You are right about the female body-shape ideals. The whole thing is disheartening, but the worst thing is the way that in some respects feminism has to re-invent itself in every generation, rather than simply being able to build on the foundations of the past.
Believe it or not there were professors at the university I attanded grad school who were STILL resistant to postmodernism. Go forbid there ever be a paradigm change :0) Cultural Anth has so many special branches that there are new 'isms' all over the place. I only pay attention to theoretical perspectives I feel are valid in my areas. Otherwise, I would go mad. Correct me if I'm wrong but archeology is part of the history feild on your side of the pnd, right? Over here it's in the anthro department so we may be in two radically diseperate theoretical field perspectives. Viva la intellagentsia :0)
You know what gets my goat as a feminist? Women who have made careers out of anti-feminist diatribes about the evils of women having careers. It's like gay politcal supporters of Bush. WTF? He refused to sign a hate crimes bill because it protected gays. Now, I am not slamming those who politics lean right, its just I don't see why you should vote for a man who thinks you are subhuman. It makes no sense. If you are a woman who thinks a woman's place is only in the home ... practice what you preach and go home. Your husband can attack feminists for you. Sheesh.
Now I will scurry off my soapbox and go feed my Tweety Bird. As a stay at home feminist mom, I take my job seriously :0)
Kyra,
I agree with your observations about fashion with regard to time period and political activism, however, I disagree wholeheartedly with "where the thinking comes from". The waif look of the sixties was a direct offspring of the feminist movement and internal to the movement itself. It was a rebellion against that curvy female look. Marilyn Monroe was the enemy. When women fight back, they take on the look that they think will get them ahead and abandon that which is female. So you either end up with a waif or an androgynous individual who could be either male or female. Feminist politics is no more good for the health of an average woman than the most misogynists.
Fashion is an economic endeavor, not a political one. Fashion Design must play to the audience. In one of the Fashion Weeks earlier this year (unfortunately I’ve forgotten the city), there was a model who could have been mistaken for a starving refugee. Her ribs were very pronounced on her back, and she looked like she barely had enough muscle tone to stand. There was such an uproar about it that Madrid Fashion Week actually instituted a minimum Body Mass Index that the models had to pass in order to participate. (I can see it now… discrimination lawsuits because skinny people are losing their jobs). In L.A. Fashion Week last week, the models looked much healthier (though with unbelievably long legs, blonde hair, and fake boobs) and the biggest controversy there was the lack of gift bags for the attendees. Most local modeling agencies are looking for the “average mom” look for their clients.
My mother told me that in her school years, she and her friends would roll up the waistband of their uniform skirts and measure each other with a ruler to make sure that the bottom of the skirt was just barely low enough to conform with the dress code. And this was after they left the house.
Who is responsible for the pre-pubescent bare midriff? Brittney Spears, her PR campaign, or the parents of the little girl who allow her to dress like she’s giving a concert on a daily basis? Have you seen Brittney when she’s dressed for comfort? Is it a male chauvinistic society that wants women to be nothing more than slutty little girls? Could it be that the reason we have slutty little girls now is because the parents today are rebelling against their own strict background and allowing the children to do whatever they please.
Or perhaps the dynamics of it all are more complicated than one man can say in a reasonable time from a soapbox of this kind.
And I haven’t even started on OH’s “America is a rape culture” meme. Don’t worry. I won’t. I’m done with the political blogs and this isn’t the place for it anyway. But I get very defensive when “women’s issues” become the fault of “male society” when in fact much of it is done to women by other women. Especially since it’s supposedly all about equality, yet the statutory rape of a teenage boy by a teacher is laughed at, father’s rights are practically non-existent, and Bob forbid we open a door AND offer to go dutch on the same date.
And isn’t assault and murder just as bad when it’s committed against “straight” people? Do we need a law that says if you kill a guy, that’s bad, but if you kill a gay guy, that’s really bad?
I’m going to step away for a while because my blood pressure is rising.
Kyra said: "Correct me if I'm wrong but archeology is part of the history feild on your side of the pnd, right? Over here it's in the anthro department so we may be in two radically diseperate theoretical field perspectives".
You are right up to a point, but it is not simple! European archaeology obviously covers everthing from the early Palaeolithic to post-Industrial Revolution, and consequently borrows, hi-jacks, uses and misuses techniques and theories from a wide range of disciplines. Prehistorians do borrow from anthropology, and even Classical archaeologists will play with anthropological theory if they have a mind to it.
Text-aided (or, as those of us who deal with it sometimes think of it, text-hindered) archaeology naturally has to take account of historical approaches. Remember that even in the USA, it is really only those who work on Native American material that are solely part of the anthropological continuum: your Old World archaeologists - Ancient Near East, Graeco-Roman, Byzantine, etc., etc., have the same sort of range as we do, except that more of them, proportionately, are trained as art-historians or straight Classicists. I was trained as a prehistorian (European) and Roman-to-early-Medieval archaeologist.
Christina - you should add your comments on this!
:-)
Ooooooooo - you could take the train across Canada to Montreal and come back through Vermont and do the upper New England tour. Probably not worth the wear and tear on your fried selves, but I can dream.
Bryan: Deep breaths. In and out. There, feel better?
And just so you know, I would never rip your head off for opening a door or going dutch on our date. ;-)
Temporary change of subject:
about two blogs ago, someone (Gatorperson, maybe?) asked me about the conservation rules on handling 17th- / 18th-century books and manuscripts. The answer, unhelpfully, is, ‘it depends’. Many 18th-century books and papers are in very good, robust condition, and are neither especially rare nor valuable. I would not think of putting on gloves to handle my own old books (the earliest one I have was printed in 1634, but I have a fair number of 18th-C. volumes). However, I make sure my hands are freshly and thoroughly washed and dried. I suspect that in the case of the TV programme where you saw bare hands being used, that was the case - clean, dry hands, so minimum danger of skin oils and acids, and documents that were not of the highest value or rarity.
When handling, say, a Medieval illuminated manuscript, I certainly expect to wear gloves, but then one must be careful in a slightly different way. Proper surgical gloves are best, because you can feel through them, and can therefore be as gentle and sensitive almost as with bare fingertips, but they are extremely uncomfortable to wear for very long (I suppose surgeons get used to it). Cotton gloves are more comfortable, but they greatly increase the chances of physical damage like abrasion or even bending and creasing of paper - tactile sensation is greatly undermined.
One is supposed to wear gloves to handle ancient metalwork, too, and much of the time, one does, but again, those of us who handle such objects on a regular basis do vary our approach. It is sometimes more dangerous to a battered and corroded ancient bronze to use cotton gloves than to use clean, bare hands, because fabric can catch on irregularities and actually cause physical damage. There is no ideal solution as yet. Archaeological conservators would prefer it if nobody ever handled antiquities, or exposed them to any light, or breathed near them, or even looked askance at them...
PS - I make sure my hands are clean and dry before handling ANY book, come to that!
Interesting answer Agtigress. I wondered what you'd say *grin*
because in Temple when you read from the Torah, you use a pointer (everything is of course in Hebrew and it's easy to lose your place) and you must never touch the pages with your hands. I'd often wondered how much of that was because of the sacred book, the ability to lose your place, or oils etc. on hands.
So, Bryan is upset and rightly so. It's a well known fact that women dress for other women, not for the male. As a rule the poor guy knows nothing of fashion. The woman flaunts her fine feathers to attract the male and to piss off the other women. Heh. Sorry, but that's my version and I'm sticking to it. And about flaunting their daughters, don't get me started ...
TAL! YOU"RE BACK!!!! HELLLLLOOOOO!
And right when I'm about to disappear again and go into hibernation. Sigh. I just started my new book. Oooooh, it's such fun. But maybe I'll stick around until the end of this blog, December 31st, right? By then I should be writing in my cave and people will forget who I am, if I ever existed.
Oh, and yay me! I decided not to run for President again for my local RWA chapter. I'm reclaiming my life. And I quit my critique group. I'd been stressed to the max this year always giving back and then some, but never asking for anything for me. I'm getting stronger and realise I have nothing to prove, so I'm just letting things be and getting off the roller coaster. My new motto is, "do less, achieve more."
rg
rg
I am answering Agtigress's call for additional comments...
Re: archaeology in the states. I study classical archaeology so more often than not classical arch programs are based in classics or even art history departments, like Agtigress has mentioned. Having said that, as an undergrad I studied archaeology which was based in the anthro department. For other areas of archaeology, I'm not able to give much info. I know actual archaeology departments in the US are few and far between (BU comes to mind as a rare example) and non-classical arch programs I think would likely be based in anthro departments. It feels like UK institutions tend to have actual arch departments instead of basing the program in another department (history, anthro, classics), like the one I am in now although technically I am affilitated with both the archaeology and classics departments, but adminstratively I am dealt with thru the arch dept.
Re: handling old things (no, not like that! get your minds out the gutter, people!). I actually had the opportunity (or the misfortune, depending on how you look at it) to identify and catalogue almost 4,000 ancient coins, mostly bronze. I tended to wear gloves most of the time, but I know many numismatists who just use their hands as when wearing gloves, one is more apt to drop the coins. I now go between being barehanded and gloved, but, like Agtigress, I always make sure my hands are clean and dry before I even think of touching an ancient artefact. Unless I have just dug it out of the grounds, because at that point both the object and I are filthy dirty and it doesn't much matter until the conservator gets a whack at it.
Bryan - yeah, deep breath. Anytime you want to go dutch around here, that's fine. We won't lamb blast you.
But I know where you are coming from. One group always wants to blame another group for all its problems.
My own thinking is that if you look like a duck, walk like a duck and quack like a duck, don't get angry because people treat you like a duck. What did you really expect?
Ideals are well and good, not evil in themselves; but if they don't consider human nature they won't last.
vqpcue: Villainous quohogs pan Crusie's ubiquitous emails
Hey Bryan, I think we need to invest in ladders more than shovels lately. (Sure makes it easier to climb off our soap box.)
I think your point about the gay rights bill was once the subject of a West Wing episode. Although, if I remember correctly, Sorkin drifted off to also make a point about the impossibility of legislating someone's thoughts.
And as for dressing children, I have that problem with my sister and my niece. During one of her summer visits, the niece wore Daisy Duke cut-offs that had the waist band (intentionally) removed. Bad enough in itself on a 12-year-old, but when you add in the fact that the shorts were slightly too loose and she's not great about paying attention to her clothes....
I think a lot of my sister's and my own issues with clothing have to do with rebellion against a strict parent. (My sister challenges by letting her daughter wear everything she couldn't, and I play it too safe.)
But I think Kyrathered's point about the decades is a VERY interesting one. Bryan, aren't you sort of making the same point? Females in those empowerment decades may have emulated the male body shape as a way of "modeling" the powerful image of the time.
Mary sez: So, GiGi, if you prefer climbing with friends... does that make you a social climber?
I've been using that line myself for years. Mostly when my climbing partners are talking and catching up and there is not enough climbing going on. :)
I should comment on the fashion/body image/feminism thread here because it was my specialty in grad school. I's like to point out that the vast majority of fashion comes from small groups of individuals and then is picked up on by designers, performers, etc. and presented to the larger society as a whole through the media. Fashion designers and the like are really not all that original and many of them rely on their young staff people to wear whatever hip, youthful sub-culture, counter-culture trends are going on, observe them, and design following that.
Examples: Madonna's fingerless lace gloves, leggings and skirts in the 80s taken from club culture in NYC in the early 80s, the "Vogue" look and dance Madonna adapted from the gay clubs in NYC in the 80s and 90s, "grunge" which was really just what college students were wearing on the west coast (Berkeley, Seattle, Portland, etc.) at the time--I remember wondering when exactly campus comfort clothes had suddenly become a fashion trend--then popularized by the music industry because of the thriving music scene in Seattle, and, to change genres, disco becoming mainstream when is started in black dance clubs in the early 70s, then spread to gay clubs in the mid 70s, then became a musical trend in the late 70s and early 80s, etc. etc.
Now you're seeing skinny jeans and leggings on young folks, a la the 80s. Well, the young gals in the dance community in San Francisco have been wearing leggings and skinny jeans and tunic tops over them for at least a year now. Really this stuff comes from youth culture and bubbles up, because it's the teens and early 20-somethings who have the freedom to wear what's creative and fun and they like and can make up by cutting, sewing, altering and embellishing for themselves instead of the boring "office-appropriate" that people out of college/high school and with jobs are confined to.
I love clothes and fashion history! Can you tell?
And kyra, btw, high heels were invented by men for men. Women adopted them later on. King Louis was very much enamoured of his own calves and thought that heels showed them off to good effect, so he wore them with tights and pantaloons that came down just below the knee so everyone could see him rockin' his bad self and his hot looking calves. :)
Bryan darling ... nowhere did I blame 'male society'. It's our culture that influences us and both genders equal culture. Women are the arbiters of fashion and in a sense 'we' are doing it to ourselves ... but it also responds to what is considered desirable during a time period. For a look at how sociopolitico themes are impressed on the male body I suggest reading Susan Bordo.
Funny, when I would teach class on racial disenfranchisment I was never accused of being anti-white, but feminist topics almost invaribly make men feel as though we are blaming them, personally. Nothing could be farther from the truth. Feminists are aware of, and critique, female disempowerment, but that does not mean we are after male dingle dangels to use as earrings or anything wretched like that. And dating is an interperosnal relationship between two people, not a political statement.
Hate crimes are different. If a person is murdered for the 'typical' reasons -- money, 'love', serial killer -- it is horrible. But in hate crimes a person is attacked because they are Jewish, or black, or gay, or whatever. It's not a 'worse' murder in that all human life is equal, but it is a unique set of circumstances. And gays are frequent targets of hate crimes.
Are we friends? I wasn't trying to pick on you/men. I am sorry if you felt attacked.
Agtigress: thanks for clearing up my questions on where archeology fits vis-a-vis fields. As a cultural person, my background in arch is schetchy at best.
Final thought, I blame parents for dressing their little girls up as tiny-tramps. Parenting is hard and requires you give a child what it NEEDS, not give in to what it WANTS. I expect her to rebel, especially as a teen, but I will not collude with her dressing up as a prostitot.
Really final thought. If my opinions ever offend anyone I apologize in advance. Let me know and I will customize said apology. It won't necessarily mean a change in opinion, but I definately do not want to hurt or offend anyone.
AgTigress and Christina,
Thanks for the info on gloves vs bare hands. I'll stop worrying about the insidious destruction of those documents.
To think this male/female/dress thingy started with Mom's casual comment about dinner, a Blackberry, a friend, and a waitress! My opinion on who dresses for whom (and you all know I'm the ultimate authority, since Good Will doesn't even want my cast offs), it all depends. I remember getting gussied up and made up decades ago in dorm rooms. Many residents would congregate in the room to offer advice on just what would please my date, not please them. Just ask yourselves, next time you're prettying up, who for? I'll bet it's for whomever you'll be with, not for those ubiquitous males or females out there.
Now, we could have a discussion on whom garter belts are for. I think the devil designed those things. For the life of me I can't figure how those things are sexy - black silky legs; pasty cellulite thighs; elastic that can shorten to make strips of dress hike up when sitting down. Yep, the devil.
gfddkvma: Nope, can't do that one. OH might be looking.
Good grief. I got so riled up reading the posts that I just blasted out three pages on injustices in the world and crap I just don't get. It was MUCH too long to post here and I'm trying not to vent so much on my own blog, so who knows where it'll end up.
Argh. Maybe I'll just pick and choose things to try and become a better human being. Not a better woman, sister, white person, overweight person, person whose husband has a whacked out ex, recovering catholic, aspiring writer, couch potato, dog person or whatever. Just a better person.
And now for something completely different ...
GG: *snort* G-belts. While avoiding any mention of personal experience, I've always thought the current over-elasticized version was a practical joke poised to go horribly awry. Amazing how something that is supposed to fasten to your leg can leave a welt on your forehead.
Garter belts, in their current incarnation, are very unforgiving for any woman with a healthy amount of body fat (as opposed to an unhealthy too little amount of body fat). They made sense when there was no elastic and they were the only way to keep up a pair of stockings and not have them fall around your ankles, but now...well, they're decorative. Kind of like wrapping paper. ;) Most (straight) men tend to notice the places in which there is no fabric as opposed to noticing the pudginess many women are obsessed about.
TMI here, but in hot, humid climates (say, the east coast in summer in an unairconditioned church sitting for long stretches at a wedding), stockings and garters are more, well, hygenic than pantyhose.
My favorite shopping friend and I always dress for each other when we get together. It's one of those "Ah, SHE will REALLY appreciate this in a way that others won't." So that's a lot of fun. Plus we have radically different styles, so we can appreciate things on each other that we couldn't/wouldn't wear ourselves.
There are women who dress for women because they know certain things will be appreciated fully and women who dress for women who think of it as competition. I'm not fond of the latter group, I'd rather give someone a compliment than think of them as my enemy in some weird way.
But then, I really have no soft spots for women who don't like other women, and I've known a few of those. Sad, really. So alienating.
Garter belts can be uncomfortable, no lie. But I have actually found confort in a corset. Now, I do not cinch in realy tight. Just tight enough to give support for my back and make my heavy breasts feel seemingly weightless. But I can always breathe in the corset, I wouldn't crush my ribs just to look wasp waisted.
I tend to dress for comfort. When I was in high school tho, I did the whole fashionista thingy. Never felt I was in competion, but knew girls who were very into the fashion wars. Oddly I never cared much about guess jeans or izod (my Bob, but I just dated myself there) but I did lust in my heart for a swatch watch. I never asked for one because even then I knew they cost more than they were worth. But still. They were cool.
Sweet Babou and I hope to find a fine line with Tweety when she is older about 'must have' clothing. We don't want her to be a self-obsessed ode to vanity and popularity, but neither do we want her to stick out and feel bad. Teenage life for girls is savage enough! So we will try to find a balance somewhere between Paris Hilton and a bag lady. Paris Hilton ... everything I don't want my daughter to be.
PS -- I just now figured out that gatorperson is The Cherry's offspring. Or did I read it wrong?
Kyra told us ... I blame parents for dressing their little girls up as tiny-tramps. Parenting is hard and requires you give a child what it NEEDS, not give in to what it WANTS
Way to go. Little girls do not need to dress up like Barbies. That's what Barbies are for.
Btuda philosophized ... Maybe I'll just pick and choose things to try and become a better human being.
Don't you just wish everyone did?
I dress to feel good about myself, not to impress anyone. I have no desire to look back on pictures of myself that I might be ashamed of years later. And I don't much care about labels either. I'd rather admire what someone else can wear than be jealous that I can't. Life is way to short to pine after what you don't have.
G-G: Used to wear garters years ago. I got tired of ditching an entire pair for one small run. And yeah, it is cooler.
vukbt: Victorious ukeles knight Bob's tuba.
Kyra - all CherryBombs share the same set of parents. Sadly they get along much better when they are 600 miles apart. Same parents are the ones kicking us out of the basement come December 31.
Holey Moley Noley!!! Kyra said "PS -- I just now figured out that gatorperson is The Cherry's offspring. Or did I read it wrong?"" NoNoNo!!! We've occasionally referred to B&J and Mom and Dad. Ummm, Jenny is almost young enough to be my DD#0.
Also, FYI, I think you all are confusing Glamour-Geek w/me. She's G-G, or GG; I'm GP.
Garter belts: I remember in the '50's my mother rolling her nylons on round elastic things to hold them up. Her sister would twist one a bit and tuck the twist into the top of the stocking. They didn't use g belts. I'm not sure g belts are all that old, except in novels. Our resident archeologists need to answer than one.
aatdns: Ahh, Ahh, Tchoo. Darned Nose Sniffles!
Okay GP, you can't call Jenny Mom anymore. It messes with my head :0)
I meet up with friends this summer and we got out the high school yearbook. We were amazed at how hot our bodies were. At the time all of us thought we were gross beyond redemption. And 'fat' ... which we were not now that we looked at the pictures as adults. Tell ya'll the truth, if I still looked like that I think I'd just go nekkid. Maybe a thong for modesty.
Bodies ... what odd things to have.
Speaking of fashion, and Project Runway (which I got sucked into because of the Cherry), I was amused that the "public" seemed to prefer Ulli's clothes because they were things that you could imagine yourself wearing. BUT the winner was a guy with writing on his neck. Hmmm. His designs were more innovative. When I remember paying attention to fashion designers (never, really, but run across it in magazines) it always seemed that the designs were not something that a real person would wear. So by chosing Jeffrey the show seemed to be perpetuating the idea that fashion designers are not really designing for real people.
Of course none of the designers were working toward the older, heavier majority of the public.
I sort of like garter belts, but they DO have a tendency to come undone unexpectedly, so mostly I wear regular hose. I was really surprised at the number of unstockinged legs at a very formal wedding I went to. Granted, it was August, but it wasn't miserably hot, and we were in an air conditioned venue anyway.
I forgot to say Happy Birthday to Bob! But I won't forget to say Hi, and Welcome Back to Talpianna. I totally forgot that yesterday (10/23) was Mole Day, but I hope it was an auspicious one for you. (For those who are not "in the know", Mole Day was not designated by any legislature, but is so called because chemists have a unit known as a mole, which has 6.02 x 10^23 molecules of whatever in it. That's right, Avogadro's number, if that's ringing a faint and distant bell. I don't know if professional chemists began Mole Day, or chemistry students. Apologies to those for whom this is unnecessary review).
nubslbl - what's left of a word after it's been pared down to its IM minimum
'Garter belts' (or what I would call 'suspender belts'): compared with the wholly loathsome tights (what you would all call pantyhose, I think), they are FINE. About a million times more comfortable than tights, which are an invention of the devil.
I wore suspender belts to hold up my stockings till, in the 1970s, the advent of very long skirts enabled me to give the things up. I don't think I have worn a short (knee length) skirt for at least 30 years (*)- only trousers and long skirts, with which one can wear comfortable knee-length or even ankle-length nylons.
I belong to the generation that regards bare legs/feet with any even moderately formal dress as Very Bad Form. Also, it gives me blisters.
:-D
(*) No - I tell a lie. I remember wearing an ordinary skirt when giving a lecture in Bloomington, Indiana, in 1991. I'm not sure why, except perhaps that Bloomington, genuinely charming as it is, seemed to be in a 1950s time-warp, so I thought I'd better fit in. I suppose I must have worn tights. Yuck.
;-)
Oh - PS again: suspender belts were the norm in the 1950s for young women, in the UK anyway. Older women wore corsets, the 30s-40s age-group wore elasticated girdles (some of them fearsomely powerful), while we young things (I was a 1950s teenager) wore light nylon suspender/garter belts, which were just to hold up the stockings, not to compress the belly/bum.
Hey! Agtigress -- I'm in Bloomington. There's a bit of small world for ya. I find it a nice place to live, and they let me wear jeans to church. What's not to love?
I think bare legs are fine if you are wearing open toed sandals. IMHO.
Ta-Ta -- Kyra
Q: Will Blogger remain functional long enough for me to write a comment? We'll see.
I really just wanted to say: Welcome back, Tal, you slacker! [hang on, let me wipe the drool off my chin]
You all are making my eyes glaze over with all this fashion talk. I grew up in a place where, for 10 months of the year, clothing was functional and the goal was warmth.
AND, what now seems like a looong time ago, MCB wrote: I keep picturing flamigos whizzing by overhead like footballs, and a sports announcer doing the critique ... a la Howard Cosell ... "a bit to high on that one, fans, but it had really good distance."
Exactly! I keep picturing them straining their long necks, trying to achieve the perfect arc, knobby legs flailing uselessly, that one black beady eye darting from side to side, looking for a soft landing spot, hundred dollar bills swirling around them with no arc whatsoever, let alone maturity...
Really Jenny, further explanation seems to be called for here.
Oh, and BTW Bob, I bought a copy of Inside Delta Force today and will be reading it in preparation for your online class. Behaving as instructed.
Back to work now.
bw
I'm with AgTigress - pantyhose/tights are the work of the devil. And who devised those size charts anyways? As a short, somewhat "curvaceous" woman, pantyhose never fit, even when I obey the chart.
Stockings = bliss
Knee-high stockings = even better
And that is probably the reason my work wardrobe consists mostly of pantsuits.
And as for bare legs and open-toed sandals, that is why I don't own any (sandals, that is).
Cary said ... As a short, somewhat "curvaceous" woman, pantyhose never fit, even when I obey the chart.
Yep! Because according to the charts, if you are short then you must be fat too! I'm nicely rounded, thank you, but not as obese as the charts claim I am.
I have exactly 2 very summery skirts I feel comfortable wearing without hose. I have three below the knee skirts that are great fall through winter with a pair of heeled boots and socks. Otherwise I stick with pants.
A few sandals can be worn on the bare foot, but most of my shoes need at least a pair of knee highes ... although they are selling those things now you can wear with slides and sandals that don't cover the whole foot.
"I think bare legs are fine if you are wearing open toed sandals. IMHO."
I agree - but that would be pretty informal dressing. Actually, I wear those little 'footlet' things (nylon socks covering just the foot - don't know what you call them in the US) even with open sandals. Otherwise I get blisters.
:-)
I liked Bloomington. The thing that stunned me was that the college campus was DRY - no alcohol! Wow! The European contingent at the conference was taken aback. Also, it was the place where I tried root beer for the first (and last) time. Yucky-yucky-yucky-yuck. Otherwise, as I said, I rather liked Bloomington. Interesting museum: quite elegant architecture.
I hate pantyhose because I am tall, and they always tend to be either too short OR they assume if I'm tall, I'm also rotund. So, they end up falling down either because they're too short or too big, and either way I end up with saggy, wrinkled elephant ankles. (Plus I hate them because they're always snagging and running.) I love summer when I can go bare-legged.
Tigress: Footies.
There must truly be some difference between how tights/ pantyhose (I don't like that word, but to us "tights" means the heavier, opaque legwear in colors, rather than fleshtones used by dancers, or, occasionally, in fall or winter) fit people, because I hear the discomfort thing a lot - but I don't find them uncomfortable at all. I guess I'm average enough in shape to fit. To the point where, not only do I wear them 5 days a week to work, plus Sunday for church (not because I have to, but because I prefer dress-up), I'll sometimes put 'em on on Saturday to wear a casual skirt or jumper (overall in BE? a usually unfitted dress one wears over a blouse, t-neck or t) out for whatever errands. I'm probably the only person at the Farmer's Market in stockings. But, for some reason, I find shopping for pants (trousers) to be so boring I never do it (except for the occasional agonizing jeans expedition), while I like to buy skirts and dresses.
I've never worn a corset, but they're probably better than long-line strapless bras. Which are handy at maintaining a smooth line, but are NOT the most secure garments in the world.
But I completely agree as to the discomfort of wearing shoes with no hose at all - I hate sticking to my shoes. I have one pair of open-toed sandals that have a rope upper sole (or whatever the thing one's foot sits on is properly called), which I can wear without sticking or rubbing too much. And my bronze-painted toenails show, if I've done them recently, so that's fun. But they're 3 inches high in the heel, so they're not super casual, and nor do I walk far in them!
xokkpmjd: xenophilous orchids know kestrels poorly manage jury duty
dlgkfwyp: discursive letters given keepers fabulously wrap yellow parcels
Diane said: '...jumper (overall in BE? a usually unfitted dress one wears over a blouse, t-neck or t)'
That's a 'pinafore dress' in BE. Not much worn by adults here. 'Overall' in BE is a cotton coat-type garment worn as protective clothing in some occupations and professions - e.g., a white lab-coat is a form of overall. 'Jumper' in BE is a slightly old-fashioned synonym for 'sweater' - knitted upper-body garment: we use 'sweater' too.
Aha! One of the things we need for the new home is an English to English translation on the bookshelf.
In AE an overall is a denim garment with trouser legs, but the pinafore style top part. A shirt is worn under neat, t-shirts being the most common, I think. It used to be considered 'farmer clothes' but was in fashion for teens a few years back. Of course those were more tailored then the baggier utilitarian ancestor.
Then there are coveralls which, well, cover all ... ha ha. These are usually cotton in a dark color and worn over your regular street garments. Mechanics, for instance, might wear them to keep from getting their regular clothes greasey.
Okay, I swore I wasn't going to share anything else from my goodie drawer, but hopefully this will make someone laugh.
I love corsets. Love how they look, love victorian clothing, etc. Unfortunately, mother nature did not decide to make me in the image of a Victoria Secret model and come to find out, being plus sized and short waisted doesn't work out so well. Besides the stays randomly impaling me, I found out that corsets give me an instant table. The bottom part in the front, designed to smooth out the lower belly, would fold up and provide me a place to set my drink. It certainly didn't do much for the lines of the clothes. And I'm not even going to go into what was involved in keeping that sucker down. There are no stiffies in women's formal wear! (and do not go there, people)
Now you've made me do it.
According to Rosemary Hawthorne's "Stockings and Suspenders: A Quick Flash" "Elastic stocking suspenders attached to the front tabs of the stays (posh word for corset), are to be found registered for patent by 1882. There were also lots of different types of suspender belt, as an enthusiastic report of 1893 in the trade publication Progress and Commerce makes clear..."
Garters, ties with which to hold up stockings, by far predate this (a couple hunderd years at least), as in Shakespeare's "stockings, cross gartered" in Twlefth Night. Stockings themselves are over 3000 years old (same source as above): "Their history is closely linked to that of knitting -- from the Saxon cnyttan, to make fabric with thread by hand -- and this simple craft was being practised in the Middle East well before the reign of Cleopatra."
AgTigress: in the US generally stockings are those which are individual and do not join in the middle, panty hose are "sheer" and nude or "natural" in color, and tights are colored or heavier fabrics, but otherwise like panty hose and do pull up to the waist. There are locations in the states, however, where stockings and panty hose are the same thing, making it difficult to tell which you're talking about. There are also thigh highs, knee highs, and peds or footies, all elasticized to stay up.
I am among the scandalous who often go bare-legged, open toed or otherwise and I love wearing shoes without socks (heels or sandals or even my Puma tennies sometimes). I guess my feet don't sweat much. Or I'm used to wearing shoes without socks from rock climbing and dancing. Used to wear footies with my dance shoes, but gave that up long ago.
Garter/suspender belts are often a drag, pantyhose are evil and demonic, and while tights are fun, they are often too heavy to wear in the California weather (though I used to wear them under jeans in the winter in Ohio and also while ice skating, to keep warm). I have been known to wear bike shorts under skirts to prevent indecency while dancing, however. Frankly, I don't really like it when my thighs rub together and chafe. TMI, I know.
I don't like root beer either. :)
I have a pair of black velvet overalls with a wide gold trim which must be about coming back into season. Pinafore dresses (I knew "jumper" was wrong!) are (mostly) not particularly stylish for adults, but can be cute and comfy for when we don't particularly care. I have a couple of casual ones and a much dressier (and fitted) one in a black watch corduroy.
The denim variety of overalls were also fashionable 25 years ago, which just goes to show. Something.
And preventing thigh-rubbing is another excellent reason (besides staying warm and evening leg color and general smoothing) to wear pantyhose - if one is average enough to fit in them comfortably.
zlzvjl: zaza loves zinging various juvenile liars
I always thought the two of you had amazing chemistry especially after reading your blog. Oh well, I'll just have to survive the disappointment. Although I do think "the lady protest to much" :)
Thrilled to hear that the book is almost done. I have been going through withdrawl.
Happy belated Birthday to Bob!
AE (American English) 'coveralls' = BE (British English) 'boiler suit'.
Tights: they are all the same kind of garment, whether made of heavy, coloured knitted fabric, or delicate 10-denier flesh-coloured nylon. That's why we call them all 'tights'.
;-) :-)
But I understand the AE distinction, and all of us seem to mean much the same thing by 'stockings'. I have just learnt BE 'footlets' = AE 'footies'. Of course, 'footy' in BE = 'football' (that is, SOCCER, not what you call 'football'), so that could be confusing...
I expect you know that AE 'suspenders' (ghastly elastic things worn by some men to hold up their trousers, or, if you prefer, 'pants') are 'braces' in BE. And, of course, in BE 'pants' usually means an undergarment: male underpants, or female knickers. I have been reasonably fluent in American English (understanding, not use of it) for many years, but the occasional surprises still come up.
Tigress: I knew that braces = suspenders as my father prefers button braces from Liberty to other, inferior, sorts.
Are the metal things many teens have on their teeth also braces there, as they are here or do they have some other name?
Btuda - thank you soo much for the image. I just about snorted up my diet coke on that one. (Weight is the one area where I believe in being as unspecific as possible so...) As a zaftig woman, I'll have to make a mental note to avoid the corsets, appealing as they may sometimes be.
And G-G, not sure which is worse. I once worked at a print shop that held a summer open house. The firm didn't (and still doesn't) have a/c or proper ventilation . The summers were absolutely miserable when the equipment was on. So they should have known. Anyways, it was a 90+ degree day, the inside with the equipment on was about 110. I was forced to decide between two evils: panty hose in heat or chafing. I was in pain for the rest of the week. (Overshare, I know.)
Funny thing about the overalls. Anyone notice they're popular as maternity wear? When my sis was last pg, we had a bit of a wonder about the wisdom of overalls, given how many times a preggers woman has to go to the bathroom.
hghke - the pantyhose shimmy and tug.
Metal things on teeth: I think they may be called 'braces' here, too, but I am honestly not sure! They are just so rare here, so one doesn't have much reason to talk about them.
Cosmetic dentistry of the kind that is so widespread in the USA is comparatively rare here, so teeth-straighteners would only be fitted if teeth were really, really badly out of alignment.
I have a friend (who may or may not have had braces as a teen) who, as an adult, is having her teeth straightened - not for cosmetic reasons, but because her bite is sufficiently off to throw her posture out of alignment. She's pretty sure that fixing her teeth is leading to the engagement of different muscle groups when she moves, affecting her joints. Considering that the body is all one piece, and how much physical anthropologists can infer from fragmentary evidence, she may be right.
I wonder how much of the day-to-day pain people develop is unavoidable, and how much is due to insults we don't even realize we're inflicting when we're younger. And, of course, whether we'd do anything about it if we knew. Considering how few of us keep up with our diet and exercise resolutions, or other things - I quit wearing my removable dental appliance (a horrible thing called a positioner) when I went to college (though I don't believe I've experienced much re-positioning as a result, fortunately).
icknukc - the inuit word for dried seal blubber
Hello C R Ford. Have I missed you or are you a former lurker just down from the attic? In any case, welcome. As to Jenny & Bob, they are more like bickering siblings than a couple. Writing partners only. Bob has a significant other at home on his barrier island, and we are still working on finding someone for Jenny. Maybe when she gets to Australia. I think the very loud protests come from being tired of repeating themselves to everyone who mistakes their collaboration as more than just in books.
Anyone had any luck with thigh-high elasticized stockings? I was thinking of getting a glam pair for a friend who wears that sort of thing, for Christmas.
plmwmr -- What you need to use if your plums are cold
isswfm -- I see some women feminists model.
Elastic-topped stockings: I never liked them. But it probably depends on your thighs.
Oh for Bob's sake, we're still talking about stockings? I'm blaming Jenny for this. She accused us of having a free-for-all in the comments and told us to stop saying ewwww and just look what happened.
Fine then. I have a pair of thick, cushy knee-high socks that are "electric" except they are powered by batteries. No, I am not kidding. I even wore them once. Ok, twice. They kept my tootsies quite toasty, thank you.
Can we talk about something else now? No?
Sigh.
I'll come back later to see whether you all have come to your senses.
bw
Since I'm a pleaser (no I don't mean that way. Get your minds out of the gutter) I will change the subject as per BCB's request.
I don't know if anybody else suffers through this, but here goes.
Since most of my research essays require that I use sources written in different languages (mostly Latin, French, German and Italian), I have to shut off the automatic spelling-corrector doohickey on MS Word. The problem is, after seeing so many different languages, I forget how to spell certain words the correct English way. Then there is the added bonus that I also try to follow BE spelling as much as possible which can add to my confusion, especially if I am tired (as I am right now) but need to keep working.
What are everyone else's obstacles when writing--the ones that may seem simple but really aren't?
ezsxkpoq--easy sex keeps Oliver quiet.
A very special thank you to CMS who emailed re: plans for December when I'm in Toronto and asked if I was still running. I'd considered not going until I got that mail, but that was enough to push me out the door and I feel much better having gone. So thank you very much, CMS. The hardest part is still getting myself out the door.
Diane: I think you're quite right about unknown injuries. My chiropractor thinks that my current rib problems stem from an old injury, most likely a bike crash I had in 1992. At that time I bruised a rib on my right side, it dented in a bit (as ribs are supposed to do, to protect the internal organs) and never bounced out the whole way. So that rib curves into my body more than the others.
Seems now that I'm running for the first time, I'm asking my lungs to inflate more than they have before and, as a result, they are bumping up against my once-damaged ribs and feeling a bit too confined.
This might also explain why my left quad/hip flexor/rectus timorus was bothering me for so long (still does sometimes) and why my knee sometimes hurts when I use my quads a lot (as in blues dancing). *shrug*
That said, my chiropractor points out that the injuries people get from activity are far less harmful than those they get from inactivity, and I can attest to that.
There, BCB, no mention of stockings. Well, until now. :)
Christina, back in my college days, I had a problem flipping back and forth between source material written in Spanish and writing the paper in English. Got called on it on my final exam - a paper on illegal gold mining in the Amazonas.
And as for current obstacles, that would be time. But I know you're looking for something more conversational than that.
So how 'bout the lack of a really big white board so I can visualize things? That's my dream: an office with one wall made completely of whiteboard or chalkboard (and magnetized to boot).
This story floating around in my head involves a long-ago murder a few doors down. So I need room to map out the sightlines of the neighborhood, so I can see who saw what. I need a place to hang my research and notes where I can see them. I need a place to scribble the really great lines of text or dialog that I don't yet have a place for. A place to hang the note cards for each scene. A space to write out my outline, that I can erase and alter easily.
And most of all, that space needs a door or a curtain, so my family won't think I'm nuts when they come to visit and see a wall covered in the details of a long ago murder.
Oh, and a reference source who won't call the cops on me when I ask if property deeds have to disclose death on the premises.
Yeah, actually, I need to change my answer. Not time, not the whiteboard. A resource who won't freak out when I ask questions.
I was all set, but got hung up on the research, 'cuz I worry too much about what other people might think. Especially if I turn up and start asking about how you'd research a 30-year old murder that happened in the suburbs. I remember from when my parents sold their house that you have to disclose if a death occured there, but I don't know the specifics of that. Does that go on the "deed"? How do you look that up on a property? Do you have to disclose cause/manner of death?
And what about newspaper archives? I'd have to ask a reference librarian how you could look that up - what newspapers existed back then and covered that particular area? How would you index that search?
Everytime I get close to asking someone these questions, I picture the look on their face. And then I'll read something about this silly act that makes librarians turn over their records and worry that someone will show up on my doorstep and ask WTH I'm doing with all this research.
Cary, maybe your best bet would be to consult a librarian at a university/college. They should be so used to people searching a myriad of topics that it shouldn't phase them.
catch-up:
byran: not starting this up again, just wanted to say kyra basically said what i wanted to say. actually, i have two sites you may like:
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2006/07/23/CMG1PJLEHN1.DTL
(article on stay at home dads)
http://www.crimethinc.com/a/gender/poster.pdf
(poster in pdf)
i am not in any way suggesting it is only males fault. women play a large role too in the way our culture has been shaped. but look at statistics- it is a rape culture. and the majority of perpetrators (sp?) are male. i am not suggesting males do not have grievances with the "system" either. i was saying it is a rape culture. there is no excuse for rape and there is no reason- it is about dominance and power, not sex. and the way our side of the pond has been created (sorry, i really just know more about American issues, but i'm working on it, i swear) plays into this. i have worn baggy sweats, baggy shirts, and been whistled, cat called, and honked at going down the street. the first thing i really learnt was about the things girls must do on a regular basis just to be "safe". now, i'm really trying to keep this short, but to say it is not a rape culture seems ignorant to me. everyone has a right to an opinion, but having lived daily with the basic dread of "will this happen to me today", it strikes me as ridculous to say there are no concerns. now, i really don't mean offense, and i admit that this issue is a hot button to me, but i was talking about something that we live in on a daily basis and some of the things that caused it.
*sigh* my short ones never seem to stay short. and why is no one else freaking out about BCB's line "Behaving as instructed"? does this not scare you all? do you remember when she was nice?
oh Bob, i'm having flashbacks. save me.
clothes: i used to see pictures of new designs on runways and laugh. for a long time i really didn't believe people actually wore them.
i am bare legs, comfy clothes girl. i want to look nice to myself, but comfort is always more important. hell, my outfit doesn't even match today. in HS i wore a lot of long skirts, esp winter, because they kept me cool but sun protected. of course, my body temperture is about 20 degrees higher than everyone around me so...
and see, you really can jump in anytime. just call it catch-up.
cary: wait, you don't look forward to when they'll show up at your door? no? no one else? huh. must just be something i do.
well, if you just photocopy and take notes but don't check it out then they'll never know.
though really, where's the fun in that?
bryan: one more thing. i'm speaking not just from personal experience and from things friends/family have told me, but with my six year work with a child abuse organization (YesICAN) and five years in other groups relating to this subject. frankly, with all the stories i've heard over the years i'm surprised i don't have more nightmares than i do.
ok, i have to go have dinner, listen to an Israel/Palestine talk, do econ hw, and watch Lucky Number Sleven again (Bob, you'd probably like this movie).
see ya later. have a good night all.
Christina: Yes, you are very pleasing (not like that, geez) and I am very pleased that you tried. My biggest obstacles to writing these days? Mostly uninterrupted time when I can focus to the exclusion of all other things and lack of self-confidence. Wish there were a Word function you could turn on that would say: "Yes, this is really pretty good" or "Oh my Bob, what the hell are you doing?" And then there's that whole "passive voice" thing.
Cary: All you have to do is tell people you're a writer and you're researching a book. Everyone knows writers are a little strange and, with that as an excuse, you can probably even get away with talking to yourself in public. Answering even.
OH: The problem I have with you saying that we live in a rape culture is that I think our culture is so much more than that and to define it as such is not only incorrect but wrong. I'm not denying rape is an important and very real issue/problem, not saying I haven't taken precautions of my own, not saying I haven't known women very deeply scarred by it, but I cringe to hear you define our culture based solely on that. Sorry, gut reaction here.
And WTF is this about being freaked out? I can behave myself. Play is play and there is no need to behave nicely. But work is work and I can be very professional. I will sit quietly in the back row and take notes and Bob won't even know I'm there. Just you watch. I did it in Atlanta, Bob even saw me doing it in Atlanta [grin], and I can do it online. For an entire month. Really.
Now I'm going to go watch The Unit. Because Bob said we should.
See? I'm so good it's scary.
bw
Ford - welcome aboard if we haven't done so before. If we have, welcome back.
Tal - the elasticized stockings I am told are great; but as Tigress indicated, it depends on the legs. Too skinny and they won't stay up, to fat and ... you get that, right. My problem? Too short. I'd have to hike the elastic up to somewhere around my armpits.
Which brings me to Btuda's corset story. I love the idea of corsets if they are comfortable, but alas I too am short waisted. So I haven't yet tried them. I have this fear that the first time I wear one I'll have to sit down and the whole thing will suddenly and painfully shift north, the top edge ending up under my chin.
And tonight on Jeopardy, I kid you not, they had a category on BE v. AE. Yes I did ace it, thankyouverymuch.
And, Tigress, in AE we call women's underwear panties usually, while men's are called briefs. And before everyone chimes in, yes I know there are a variety of styles that don't fall into either category; but people we've had the whole thong discussion before and let's just not go there again, hmmm?
And now its not so late, but I'm feeling off and a bit achy, probably from the flu shot today; so I'm saying goodnight, Gracie.
ysgztah: Yellow squid grabbed Zaza's tuba; all heave!
Oops, forgot. Cary, I think there's some kind of paint you can use on walls that mimics white board ... or maybe that's chalk board. Do a wall and go crazy. Also, office supply places have these adhesive backed cork squares you can put where ever you need.
As to research, are you telling me we have not one expert on real estate on this blog? Sheesh. Hmmm, let me think about this; I might know a real estate lawyer or two. Just not sure I know them well enough to broach this subject.
"Just not sure I know them well enough to broach this subject." And with this, MCB, we are back to my problem.
With Molish erudition, Talpianna opined thusly:
I don't see why Jenny and Bob can't be a couple. Burke and Hare* were a couple. Bonnie and Clyde were a couple...
but the question is -- a couple of what?
With puzzling agility, RG spake thusly:
because in Temple when you read from the Torah, you use a pointer (everything is of course in Hebrew and it's easy to lose your place) and you must never touch the pages with your hands. I'd often wondered how much of that was because of the sacred book, the ability to lose your place, or oils etc. on hands.
Um, I hate sounding ignorant, but I have to ask this. If you're only using a pointer, and must never touch the pages with your hands, then what the heck do you do when you need to turn a page?
nyjxmx - a New Yorker jinx mix, as opposed to a minx jix, which is a different matter entirely
Cary, I'm telling you, say it's research for a book you're writing and you need an expert opinion. Most people are flattered to be asked to talk about what they know and love. Try it. You probably won't be able to get them to sh-- um, stop talking.
Mary: It's a scroll. You turn the scroll handles. Yes, I'm pretty sure those are the technical terms for it. And there is a ceremony, which my children were honored to perform at their cousin's bar mitzvah last year, where you undress and then redress (no, not like that) the Torah. It does not wear stockings.
Oh, c'mon, that was not disrespect. My sister would never forgive me if it were.
bw
Metaphorically speaking, Mary slaps her phylactery-free forehead Dur! I shoulda thought of that. My mindset is well and truly set in left-to-right top-to-bottom reading patterns. (Mind you, I did write a brilliant paper on what the interconnectivity inherent in surfing the web will do to the mindset of them young whipper-snappers.)
Thanks, Ms BcB.
Talpianna, in my obviously non-Talmudic experience those elastic thigh-high stockings work well the first time you wear them; afterwards the elastic doesn't do its stuff as well. Just my two cents' worth, FYI, FWIW, YMMV, ICYC
(Okay okay. For Your Information, For What It's Worth, Your Mileage May Vary, In Case You Care)
more on tights, I have an English friend, a teacher who sufers from heat rash and she buys tights from an English catalogue [sorry I don't know wich one, maybe Littlewoods] with no gusset[crotch] they keep her cool and properly dressed. She swears by them.
CMS--Any further data on the teacher supposedly sentenced to live in Canada for three years? Are you sure he wasn't just hiding out there to avoid extradition? Reminds me a bit of the old joke: "First Prize: A week in Philadelphia. Second Prize: Two weeks in Philadelphia."
Christina--I feel your pain re: Word's Spellchecker and its minuscule vocabulary. (note: it just objected to my spelling of "spellchecker.") I also use foreign languages (though probably much less extensively than you) and am fond of British spellings.
Cary--Whether or not it's a legal requirement to disclose a murder on the premises probably varies by state, or even city. I doubt if it's an enforceable provision.
You might try, as well, as the librarian, the local historical society. All you need to do is ask for the microfilms of the local journals from that era. And I think you are mistaken about people's reactions; they'd probably be delighted to help you. Just walk into a local real estate agent's office and ask. Or the County Recorder's office. And that way you may get all sorts of links--like an introduction to the son of one of the cops who dealt with the case or of a local journalist who covered it. Hey, if it's only thirty years ago, a cub reporter or a rookie cop involved might still be around!
I know when I was writing my story for the OLYMPUS anthology I knew I wanted the goddess Pallas Athene to arrive on a really powerful motorcycle. All I know about motorcycles is that they have two wheels. So I called up the local Harley dealership and asked for the terminology to describe the kind of hog a Hell's Angel might ride.
I don't think anyone will feel the need to contact Homeland Security. Now if you were researching how to build ANFO bombs or fly planes into buildings....
Have you seen DEAD AGAIN? Do you remember the scene in which Kenneth Branagh, as the P.I. investigating the old murder, interviews the narrator, the chain-smoking reporter played by Andy Garcia, who is now in a nursing home and has had a laryngectomy for cancer of the throat and speaks through a hole in the throat? And demands Branagh give him a cigarette before he'll tell him anything?
Orangehands: Have you read Ursula Le Guin's TEHANU, the "fourth book of the Earthsea Trilogy"? It deals with a lot of the issues re: a rape culture that you bring up.
On fashion: I remember the first rebellion. Women have always worn what the fashion designers decreed, because the chain stores only sell knockoffs of what was shown in Paris or Milan and there was no choice. Remember the sack dress, people? The bubble dress? The end came with the original maxi skirt, introduced in the mid 1960s: not a graceful ankle length skirt such as you see nowadays but one that hit mid-calf, a line that is flattering to nobody. I think the designers meant to force everyone to replace their closets full of miniskirts.
Guess what? It didn't work. At least not in Berkeley, where I was living at the time (and no doubt elsewhere) because there were so many boutiques selling what people actually WANTED to wear that the big stores were stuck with racks full of maxi skirts that no one would buy. In Berkeley, it was granny gowns or minis or jeans; no doubt other cities had their own fashion statements. It wasn't as impressive as the fall of the Berlin Wall, but it worked: one can now find all sorts of variety in fashion.
Oh, by the way, I'm reading Tanith Lee's Secret History of Venus tetralogy, about an alternate-world Venice, with each book themed to a different element. I'm on the third one now, and there is a flamingo in it. And on the cover.
A good model for research might be Victoria Lincoln's A PRIVATE DISGRACE: LIZZIE BORDEN BY DAYLIGHT. She grew up living just down the street from Lizzie, and has a lot to say about her adventures when she went home to write a book about her. She has maps and diagrams and such and mentions all sorts of details. For example, as to who saw what--the time of year makes a difference, because trees in leaf would block your view.
You might also find out if the paper or the historical society (or even neighbors, unless you think they'd not want to discuss it) has photos of the area at the time, so that you can see what was there in the way of landscape features.
Are you writing fiction based on the case or non-fiction?
phnemjr -- Please help naughty emus mate, Jenny & Robert.
Ford: sorry, meant to say Welcome.
BCB: i definitely wouldn't one-define a culture like that when talking about it to someone in a general sense, but for a specific purpose, and, well, if the term fits...but i do admit, when i am more directly involved with a cause about it, it becomes an even stronger hot button issue.
and BCB, please, we need Bob for a rewrite. it will be hard to do that from the mental institution. (i know you're tough Bob but it's BCB). which brings to mind jail. does anyone know if a retired person in the air force, army, etc goes to the regular jail? i mean, take Bob. he's probably taught how to get out of a maximum security prison with a needle he secrets under his skin. which is really freaky if you think hard about it.
tal: thanks for book recommendations (Ursula Le Guin's TEHANU and Victoria Lincoln's A PRIVATE DISGRACE: LIZZIE BORDEN BY DAYLIGHT, even if that one wasn't aimed at me). will try to check them out soon.
cary: and it is someone who is giving you info, you can always put them on the acknowledgment page. that'll get a mouth talking. getting it to shut up will be the problem. (or how did BCB put it? "stop talking". yes, sounds much better).
which reminds me, BCB said "Wish there were a Word function you could turn on that would say: "Yes, this is really pretty good" or "Oh my Bob, what the hell are you doing?""
there is a function like that. we call it CBs. SEND ME SOME PAGES AND I WILL READ THEM!!! this may be my future job, let me have the practice.
oh, and before i sign off for the night/morning/afternoon probably, Kyra, if you still have it would be interested in reading the paper you wrote, re: fashion, etc.
Interesting that the Torah is still printed as a scroll. All books used to be like that, until the codex was invented in the late-Roman period. Both forms have advantages and disadvantages.
:-)
Writing problems.
This is one with which Christina and, no doubt Orangehands, will identify, I think: *&^%$£ references! The stalling of the actual writing process and the break in concentration when one has to go to look something up before continuing.
This may mean, in my case, simply getting up from the computer and crossing the room and taking a book off the shelf, which is all right, but sometimes it means abandoning that train of thought and writing something else till I can get to another library, or e-mail a colleague and get a reply from them, or get a museum object out of storage / off display and examine it. The flow of words is unlikely to resume easily after a three-day interruption...
The good thing is, one gets pretty used to this after 45 years or so.
bcb: So did you watch the Unit as instructed? I watched it for the first time last night and well... Maybe it was just a bad episode, but I saw it all coming from a mile away. Bob is going to come pinkie me to death for saying this, but come on, the bad guys took all but one SAM (why?), which the good guys could conveniently use to shoot down the copter that was conviently just taking off from the correct one of five possible landing strips they just happened upon? And there just happened to be a kid in BFE Bolivia that spoke English and knew all the answers? And of course they weren't going to take the kid with them. And do SF guys really go around shooting bad guys who carry big guns without protective gear? And at the end the RabbleRouser wife and the Stick-in-the-Mud wife are suddenly BFF planting flowers that 5 minutes before the RabbleRouser hated?
Now, that makes me sound like I hated the show. In fact, it was fun and I will probably watch it again, but from the standpoint of "wicked" writing, well...I had issues. IMHO.
OK Bob, do your worst. I can take it.
agtigress: there are so many days where I consider tossing my historical WIP and start a story that takes place in the future where I can make up the details.
Research is so important, and you just can't fake your way through it (usually). One of the first things I submitted to a critique group was ripped to shreds because I got lazy. I tried to put chocolate chip cookies in the late 1800s. Like anything older than a certain date just happened to be around forever. Wrong. Lesson learned.
hkbrqvg: Helium kills balloons really quietly, very good.
ME: Yeah, I can't disagree about the whole convenience factor, but it's TV and they've got 45-50 minutes to get it done... I know, no excuse for being that sloppy.
I really didn't like the girlfriend's father's about face -- thought it was unbelieveable, poorly written and acted.
I did like some of the dialog and am enjoying the character development (this is the third show I've watched). Noticed last night that the show is based on that book I just bought, Inside Delta Force, so it will be interesting to read that.
Ditto what Tigress said about research -- it can really slow things down but is necessary.
Got to dash or I'll be late for work.
bw
Tal - I am still dealing with the whims of the fashion industry. Last spring the 'in' thing was pleated and flaired brown skirts with flounces and frills. And of course there were lots of brown accessories to go with. So I didn't do much shopping that season because (a) how much brown do you really need in your wardrobe? and (b) I look horrible in pleats and flounces - true I believe for most women.
This season its the tunic look, which is a sight better than they "hey look at my bellybutton, everyone" look; however they all seem to have the loose or plunging neckline to be worn over t-shirts and such. Except on me they only serve as a frame for my, huh, endowment.
The Unit: I'd like it better if they left the wives out entirely. Too much like watching a soap opera.
BCB - My dad has read Inside Delta Force and really enjoyed it. He's something of a history buff and served in the military himself (USAF about 100 years ago) if that's anything to go by.
MCB: I like the wives/families in it, is shows how they all deal with these guys going off and putting themselves in danger all the time while still trying to maintain a normal life (and how the guys deal with these jobs and a family, hence the guy getting dumped).
And, I love brown clothes. The color complements my skin tone. Not frilly stuff, though. That doesn't complement anything.
BCB: I understood the father, he's all about the prestige and rank, but yeah his acting was a bit over the top.
Hello all, miss me? :0)
OH: I'll be glad to copy you the paper and the (more importantly) the bib. Also, for more information on rape prone cultures search in the anthropology papers at the university library. A brilliant anthropologist, whoses name escapes me at the moment, wrote a seminal paper on why some cultures rape and some don't. There are places who don't have a clue what we're talking about and think we are making it up ... and places where rape is used as a common tool of agression. In re: culutres where women produce less 'valued' work and there is a tension between the sexes and hypermasculization of the 'warrior' concept = rape prone.
Tal: I got a mental image of the Torah being dressed up in a nice pantsuit ensemble ... thanks! How does one dress a scroll BTW?
To find a corset that won't gouge you have to go to Fredricks of Hollywood and get one that goes from your breasts to your hipbones ... surprisingly comfortable if worn correctly. Or RenFaires have them.
Tweety's new word yesterday was 'two'. She can pick two out of a lineup, but doesn't say any of the other numbers yet.
Hey, did anyone else see the article about the dad who pulled a gun on a Peewee football coach because his six year old wasn't getting enough playing time? WTF? Have parents lost their minds? Call me crazy, but what happened to teaching a child that good sportsmanship is the key?
BTuda - it wasn't just the research factor, the actual fact-checking, that I meant - that goes without saying. I write non-fiction, usually with full academic apparatus unless I am doing something very popular, and the real problem is schooling oneself to insert full references, and keep the bibliography up to date, as one goes long, thus risking losing one's writing mood. Inserting something like '(ref: Künzl?? 1984?- CHECK!) is my besetting sin: it enables me to keep writing, but lands me with a hideous reference-searching task at first-edit stage.
On corsets: I don't see how a really elaborate boned corset made without elasticated fabrics is ever going to fit perfectly if bought 'off the peg'.
I remember my grandmother always had her corsets made to measure. There were firms that specialised in this (in this country, the name I remember was Spirella), and I am sure this was the normal situation. Their representatives would visit customers in their homes, measure them in great detail, and the chosen style of garment was made up and dispatched to them by post. This was certainly still being done in the 1950s. It was in that decade, though, that better elasticated materials introduced boneless girdles, and made the full, armour-like corset the preserve of the older woman.
They started young, though. My mother has told me that my grandmother arranged that, when she (my ma) turned 15, she, too, should henceforth be measured and corseted at the next visit of the Spirella-lady. That would have been in 1930.
Hey Cary:
I know this won't help you display everything on one wall, but what I do is buy a kids large Crayola writing pad from Target. $4.30 plus tax. It has thirty pages of drawing paper and a nice easy handle grip. I cut off the front cover just because it's too kiddie : ) Then when I travel up to L.A. for the weekend I can throw it in the trunk. If I want to sit out on the patio and work on it, or take it to the lake, it's portable.
I use one half of the first page for my collage, then beside that do a fifteen by fifteen block of three inch squares and insert chapter numbers in tiny print the day in the book, the page count the POV. How many scenes in each chapter. Then as I go along after I've written the synopsis I fill the pivotal points, the black moment, the conflict and resolution.
As the story unfolds, I jot down a few comments on the scenes in that block.
Another page shows the actual time line.I use J&B's four acts structure.
On another page I do brief character studies of my main characters and words and phrases they might use.
I list on another page all secondary characters.
I have a page showing character arcs, motifs.
When I wrote about a murder in Vermont (and had never been to Vermont) I had to research online. If you type in Vermont Police Department, you'll get a long list. You find what's pertinent. You can even read up on prior cold cases etc. I found the name of the Montpelier newspaper and typed that in and searched archives.
In Los Angeles, if I want the archives of say the Times, I type in Los Angeles times Newspaper+Archives. They charge you a couple of dollars sometimes to go way back but you just put it on a credit card and can peruse to your hearts content. : )
I have walked in to Police Departments and chatted to officers, have visited the CoastGuard, the Fire Department, many historical buildings and museums. Introduce yourself as a writer doing research. People love to talk.
You just have to make sure the people you are talking to can point you in the direction of written or documentated facts because if they're speaking from memory you might end up quoting something incorrect. But then if it's fiction ...
Hope this helps in some small way.
rg
adobw
a dob will do (whipped cream on strawberries, yum!)
Oh and BTW, I put a small hook on the wall behind the desk where I can display whichever page I'm currently working on but for the most part it stays open to the collage and grid page.
rg
RG and everyone else, thank you for the tips on research and display. I'm a VERY visually-oriented person. When I'm writing, whether a proposal for the office or for myself, I need everything right in front of me. No tidy little piles for me!
As whether this is fiction or non-fiction, it is Fiction. Based on a story from my neighborhood. (Did anybody else have a "haunted house" down the street growing up?) Something bad happened there the year my family moved in. But, because we were all too young, no one would talk about it with us. The neighborhood kids would make up stories about the house to explain their parents' reactions.
My protaganist is driven by events in her life to finally go back and discover what really happened in that house down the street. What was truth and what was made-up. I want to make her search for information realistic, but keep the flow and theme of the story intact.
I'm not sure if I should really dig in to the "real" story. A) I'm now living 200 miles away. B) That library district won't take questions unless you have a library card with them. C)I'd have to do a newspaper search from the library there, because the online archives don't go back that far for the major daily (and suburb coverage back then was pretty spotty anyways) and the more "local" journal doesn't have online archive capability.
I also have AgTigress' problem with research/facts sometimes getting in the way of a good story ;-). I may just wing it and go back later to clean up anything that turns out to be unrealistic.
BIG THANK YOU, GUYS!
G-G Gald I could motivate you out the door. It works both ways. I did all my situps today because you went for a run yesterday. and I hold you completely responsible for all my new bras and the look they've given me. But that's all the information I want to share on that subject thankyouverymuch.
I worked 12 hours yesterday so I'm a bit out of the loop. CaryPeople are thrilled to answer questions for writers. It makes them feel important and part of the process.
Today I will be researching funding for small rural libraries. I'm accepting donations lol
Thanks OH for the dark chocolate M&Ms. Delicious, even if they did double the number of sit-ups required.
mcb sez: Last spring the 'in' thing was pleated and flaired brown skirts with flounces and frills
Which just goes to show that despite the magazines and news, fashion is still regional. I saw nothing of the sort. Some brown, but not a ton, and certainly no flounces and frills.
The tunics I've been seeing seem to mostly be turtlenecks, mock turtles, and shawl collars. Must be the location again. We get fog here and it can get chilly. Not today, where it's forecast to be in the 70s, but soon the fog and rain and chill will be upon us.
Cary: just make sure you get the names of the people who help you so you can put them in acknowledgements when you're published. People feel so appreciated when you proffer a simple thank you.
Notice When you are published, not If. :)
btuda> love that visual, I have the same problem with swimsuits that have skirts - the skirt wants to ride ABOVE the roll - it does not want to hide anything!
Cary> YES, on the whiteboard. I really need a whiteboard. Last night on Veronica Mars she had a whiteboard and she SOLVED the puzzle. I need one.
Stockings> you all make me laugh. Don't you know that bare legs (gasp) are the NORM now. It is acceptable to have bare legs at all occasions, even when it is snowing outside. See any fashion magazine. My friend said that this month's Glamour reiterates this RULE. Ladies with sheer nylons are NOT IN STYLE and even risk looking old and dowdy.
Now for those of us who are old and dowdy, who cares? Also, I have taken the stand that comfort should trump fashion, so if you need stockings to not stick to shoes then wear them. But I also would dare to wear white shoes in the winter so what do I know?
gg> you have not been shopping where I have been. I walk through Macy's or Kohl's (tried this out for the first time), and everything was brown and STILL has flounces and ruffles. I feel like I have walked into the brown version of an old Molly Ringwold movie where someone has said - okay lets cut out the neck, and then we will put in a ruffle, and stick some lace here and a big fabric flower here. (Pretty in Brown instead of Pretty in Pink, which I hear they are releasing a better enhanced version of Pretty in Pink, let's all rush out to buy one).
Ah, Kay T, thank you. That would be the reason I don't see this stuff. I stopped shopping in department stores several years ago because I can never find anything. If they'd just put trousers together, jeans together, tops together so I could see what they had... But no, they randomize it so you can't find anything unless you look at everything, and as much as I love shopping and clothes, I don't have the patience for sorting the wheat from the chaff. Their sales strategy, to make you look at everything in the hopes that you will buy more, fails with me because I just don't look at anything anymore. Except in the lingerie dept where I can find bras because they put them all together, thank goodness.
I tend to favor Ann Taylor, Ann Taylor Loft (though both have recently changed their sizing and patterning, so all bets are off now--they don't seem to fit me anymore), Levi's for jeans, and then random sample sales (though these have been declining in quality and quantity of merchandise lately and my friend and I are considering abandoning them next year and not going anymore). My treat is forays to my favorite shop in Toronto when I'm there. It recently reopened in its new location--I feared it was closed for good even though I knew the owner wouldn't do that, because it wasn't at its old location or open in its new digs yet in June when I was there. I am mightily relieved! There, can talk to the owner or her saleswoman who is fantastic, and she usually makes great, functional, easy to wear stuff that is quite practical for someone with a life that does not involve limos and cocktail parties (more's the pity).
And Target for t-shirts, because who wants to spend more than a few bucks on a t-shirt? And Land's End for nightshirts, ditto. And Lululemon for athletic wear when I can afford it because they really do make things that are higher quality and fit well and are functional--but they cost a mint.
Probably more than you wanted to know about my wardrobe, but I really hate wearing "outfits" that anyone else might think to put together. I don't mind a regular pair of trousers and a blouse from some chain, as long as I can put it with a jacket no one else has in a combination no one else would think of with accessories from craftspeople who make one of a kind things.
*cue* "I gotta be me!"
G-G: I shop Ann Taylor Loft also and I saw a high concentration of brown this past spring. Also the flared skirts I mentioned. And not in soft fabrics but that stiff stuff so they looked like school uniforms more than anything. I was very disappointed because they usually do a decent job of compromising quality and classic lines without looking fuddy-duddy.
I'm definitel a petite department gal and used to love Petite Sophisticate because their prices were very reasonable and good quality as well. And I knew I wouldn't find styles that were too hideous. Sadly they went out of business. Doesn't it always go like that?
Ann Taylor is good, but so pricey. Their quality is good but not THAT good. I have a few pieces from sales and that's about it.
Here is an article on the changes in women's sizes, called "Faith-Based Sizing":
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/15319430/site/newsweek/page/3/
mkmfil -- Mary Kay makeup flung in lumps (distracts from the brown frills)
Tal and OH Sorry it's taken so long to get back to you on the American sex offender who was exiled to Canada. The debate continues to rage as his living situation is suspect. Allegedly, his wife and three children live in Fort Erie, Ontario, he lives roughly 40 miles away in St.Catharines Ontario. He pled guilty to touching the 15 year old girl's breasts over top of her clothes. It was his request that he remain in Canada rather than serve jail time in Buffalo. The parents of the girl agreed. They wanted to avoid a trial as the girl is still in love with her former teacher, with whom she'd had a year long relationship. Authorities from both sides of the border are looking at the immigration ramifications from these deal. But it has definitely caused a media frenzy on this side, I'll tell you. I was out with friends after work last night and it was the hot topic at other tables as well as our own.
btuda said "I tried to put chocolate chip cookies in the late 1800s. Like anything older than a certain date just happened to be around forever. Wrong. Lesson learned."
LMAO.
ag said "Inserting something like '(ref: Künzl?? 1984?- CHECK!) is my besetting sin: it enables me to keep writing, but lands me with a hideous reference-searching task at first-edit stage."
i do that. the flow matters more to me then getting it historically right the first time around.
clothes: there was an amazingly cheap place near my house where i could buy shirts for like, three bucks. also, they normally didn't have brand names on them, which i like. i'm against buying clothes that have the brand name big- why the heck should i pay them to advertise for them? but, sadly, it closed a few years ago.
kyra: please send me it in email. orangehands@gmail.com. thanks a lot.
tal: thanks for the article
CMS: thanks for the update.
gg- teeshirts: every spring and fall, Mervyn's comes out with a huge selection of teeshirts (short-sleeved in spring, long in fall). Some are plain, many are gaily decorated, and most are on sale. Since I tend to wear teeshirts a lot (decorated, dressy ones over slacks and skirts for work, plain over jeans), I stock up every spring and fall. Great bargains and they last quite a while if you wash them on the gentle cycle and hang dry.
Also, here on the left coast, is a store called Chicos (don't know if you have it in the midwest and east). It carries unique and quite lovely women's clothes. They are on the expensive side (but very well made), but if you go to the outlet store, you can get some really great stuff at reasonable prices (gg-Vacaville outlet stores).
As for stockings. I worked as an Executive Assistant most of my career and had to dress appropriately as I was usually working for the owner or president of the company. I now work in software applications and can wear anything I want (within reason). Haven't had stockings on in months and I've never been more comfortable! Pantyhose - do not pay any attention to the chart on the back. If you are tall but slim, buy a size smaller, they stretch. Also, buy the cheap ones, they look just as good and won't drain your check book as much. Garder belts - bloody uncomfortable if you ask me and the stockings don't come up far enough to stop the chaf factor on the upper thighs. Thigh highs - a friend of mine bought some and ended up with them around her ankles as she was walking through the mall. If they don't fall off completely, they will pull down and bag around your knees if you sit down and cross your legs, then stand back up.
I learned alot from all of your comments and enjoyed reading them. Have a great day everyone!!
All this stocking talk is the reason I'm bare legged as long as the weather allows. I've done black fishnets for special occasions but the rest of the time I'm in slacks or bare legs. Barefoot if I can get away with it.
CMS - barefoot, YES!!
barefoot is the best way to be.
me said...
but come on, the bad guys took all but one SAM (why?), which the good guys could conveniently use to shoot down the copter...RabbleRouser wife and the Stick-in-the-Mud wife
Ooh, I remember this show, now. Unless it's improved mightily since the first episode (which it doesn't sound like it has), it sucked, bigtime. Man those wives were so Stepford, and the ops were totally OTT, as me (her not I) cited. I may not be Special Forces, but I almost married a Ranger, and I worked with Seals and Delts and Marine spec ops and so on in mission planning at the NMCC, so yeah, I do have a clue. And dating a Ranger, you get to know the other wives/gfs and what their circle is like. Totally sucked. The show, I mean. Sorry, Bob. /;+) Maybe it's a nostalgia thing for you. Er, him, since we're past 100 comments, and he won't see this. Maybe a good thing.
BTW, Theresa in Pgh emailed that she was on her way to Scotland the day I couldn't get to the blog. She's been there for a several days now. She didn't have a permanent living arrangement yet, so, who knows when she'll be able to comment again.
mwyquuk (blue)
One of those places on the East Coast?
mlkvm (blue)
Mary loved Kenneth's velvet mantle.
From the article Tal mentioned:
"We first introduced a size 0 (25½-inch waist) about 15 years ago..."
What has happened to waist sizes??? I had a 22-24 inch waist when I was in my teens, and I could barely find clothes that fit - meaning I was too big for the standard sizes. Granted my hips and bust were way out of proportion for that waist size, but, for pity's sake, when did a 25 1/2" waist get to be considered beyond tiny??? 28" used to be a largish medium. Yikes. I went to school with a lot of little Asian chicks who had 18" waists, and they wore 2s and 3s.
dednhhmr (red)
What someone is who was killed with a hammer?
zaza: thanks for theresa update. (though wondering, where is she staying now?)
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